Kasparov...throw Russia Back To The Stone Age........

[ToraToraTora]

...with you Gary.

[sevenOP]

ichkeria: "I’m sure the people defending their homes and freedoms in Ukraine are really thrilled"

"really thrilled" at what, ichkeria ?

Another 'evade the question', member - and 'ignore the proposal'.

"Faced with that, fighting back is the only option." ... go get a tin hat
and risk your own blood.

[ichkeria]

"... go get a tin hat
and risk your own blood. "

Believe me I would if I could
meanwhile, donating to the armed forces of Ukraine will have to do

[ichkeria]

If I was to say what I really thing about people like you I'd be banned (probably rightly)
Just be thankful I'm being "evasive"

[sevenOP]

ichkeria: "I’m sure the people defending their homes and freedoms in Ukraine are really thrilled"

"really thrilled" at what, ichkeria ?

[ichkeria]

Really thrilled at your idiotic idea.
As surely you must have gathered

[ichkeria]

And I'm ignoring you from now on

[jim360]

The idea that there's a solution right now that doesn't involve:

1. Putin coming to his senses and ending this madness;
2. Putin being permanently removed from the picture and his replacement coming to their senses on his behalf;
3. A total defeat for Russian forces before either of (1) or (2) happens;
4. Putin deciding that he's going to lose but taking as many with him as possible (Doomsday scenario)

is fanciful at best. In particular, right now, the concept that the Russians are serious about negotiating is deluded: their demands remain the same as the bogus reasons for starting this war.

[sevenOP]

"are really thrilled" is present tense, not some future, hypothetical tense.

"And I'm ignoring you from now on"... just like you'd ignore any peaceful proposal for a conflict resolution ?

[jim360]

Peaceful proposals are all well and good, but rely on everybody involved being a rational agent who will also respect the outcome. Neither of these apply to Putin.

[ichkeria]

For example, Minsk II - which was the result of everyone sitting down and talking, largely because at the time the main players realised that further fighting was not going to get anywhere.
Putin stopped fighting, but cynically ignored the plan for a permanent peace, until he finally tore it up, a day after Ukraine had asked for talks on how to progress it,.

For example, Sarkozy's Georgia settlement, which worked for a while for the same reasons as the above, but whose proposals were, again, ignored by Russia.

[sevenOP]

jim360 "right now, the concept that the Russians are serious about negotiating is deluded:"

You have completely ignored my proposal, and are another 'Putin mind reader'.
The proposal has NEVER even been mentioned, as it is as 'UNPALATABLE' to 'the West' as it is to some contributors in this thread.
SHAME on them.

[sevenOP]

"Peaceful proposals are all well and good, but rely on everybody involved being a rational agent who will also respect the outcome. Neither of these apply to Putin."

How do you KNOW that, jim360 ?
You have totally ignored my suggestion again. Did you not understand it ?

[jim360]

You mean the proposal for a "new security structure"? As proposals go, it's rather light on detail, isn't it...

As for "resolving this Ukraine War", same question: how? Bearing in mind that the following are Russia's current red lines:

i) Crimea to be recognised as part of Russia;
ii) Donbas separatists to be recognised as two new independent States;
iii) Ukraine military to be disbanded, either totally or at least functionally;
iv) Ukraine to remain neutral and join neither Nato nor the EU;
v) No other countries to join Nato either, especially Finland and Sweden;
vi) The Zelenskiy regime to be removed and a new "independent" (read: Russian puppet) Government set up in its stead.

All six of these are unacceptable conditions.

[jim360]

Incidentally, I "know" that Putin is neither rational nor interested in rules based on all of his actions on this matter to date. Starting the war, and then continuing it in the face of such opposition, merely confirms it. I should also add to the picture the tens of thousands of arrests of protesters within Russia, the total clampdown on all non-State media sources, the internet censorship, and, of course, the well-documented War crimes already committed.

It's not yet too late, of course, for Putin to back down; but, to do so would be humiliating, and for a leader who's

[jim360]

"...and for a leader who's trying to be a strongman, humiliation is fatal", that should have finished.

[sevenOP]

jim36o ; "You mean the proposal for a "new security structure"? As proposals go, it's rather light on detail, isn't it... "

No, jim, the FULL proposal ~

// a Conference arranged in a neutral venue, with US,UK,France,Russia,China, Japan,India,Pakistan,Brazil,Germany,North Korea,Canada,South Korea,Australia, and others, to not only resolve this Ukraine war, but *more importantly* formulate a new security structure for the entire world, to be signed by them all and legally binding on them all.
A new security structure will have be ironed out eventually anyway, if peace is to be ever reached.//

[jim360]

Yes, I glanced at it. But I wasn't sure what made this different from, say, the UN Security Council, or just the UN in general.

I would love to resolve this by talking. Everybody would. But it relies on the other party, primarily Russia, being prepared to listen to reason. Right now, he is not. The sanctions and the support for Ukraine's military effort are right now the best chance at forcing Putin to back down and go to the negotiating table in a reasonable position.

[sevenOP]

"Incidentally, I "know" that Putin is neither rational nor interested in rules based on all of his actions on this matter to date."

I see, the either black OR white picture, either good OR evil, "you are either with us, OR with the enemy.
zero OR 100%, NO possible in-betweens ?

[jim360]

He's invaded a foreign country on spurious grounds and the Army under his command is slaughtering citizens. I don't think there's much room for shades of grey on that front.