ChatterBank0 min ago
Shakespeare Removed By Starmer
The Bard of Stratford upon Avon wrote during the reign of Elizabeth 1, she in turn was queen during a time when there was slavery, therefore ................ he has to go !
Philistinism, wokism or both ?
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NJ //... and [I know] next to nothing about an awful lot of things. Literature in general and poetry in particular fits firmly into that last category.//
With respect: I don't know if you are a judge or a jino (judge in name only)😉 But if you are a real judge, imo you should know about one of the greatest judgements of European culture; that of Paris.
And if you haven't read Homer's Iliad you won't know what the 'Judgement of Paris' is, and if you don't know that, you won't know what the Trajan war was all about, and if you don't know what the Trajan war was about, you won't also know about the context of The Odyssey, and if you don't know what that was, you won't know why the final chapter of the 'Wind in the Willows' (which I'm just re-reading after 50 years, with great chuckles) is called, The Return of Ulysses. 🙄
// And so another way he goes //
// It’s just that I like the words to be in the right order //
Hmm.
// What are these life-changing powers //
It’s difficult to put into words. But great works of literature have definitely changed my life. They have certainly enriched it, and fired my imagination. As for word order, I’d argue that an ‘uncommon’ word order is not necessarily an ‘incorrect’ one. Take the last line of Milton’s Lycidas, for example: “Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.’ Perfectly intelligible, but in my opinion far more elegant than “Tomorrow [he would go to] fresh woods and new pastures.” And I think many other people would agree with me; Milton’s phrase has passed into the language, even if many people misquote “fresh woods” as “fresh fields”.
That said, I feel NJ could have chosen a better example of great English literature than Wordsworth’s “Daffodils”. I think there are far better poets than Wordsworth, the poet who described a pond (in his poem “The Thorn”) like this:
"I’ve measured it from side to side:
‘Tis three feet long, and two feet wide."
Personally, when it comes to the Romantic poets, I’d choose Keats over Wordsworth any day, and Shelley over both of them. I prefer Shelley’s description of dead leaves in ‘Ode to the West Wind’ as ‘pestilence-stricken multitudes’ to the sensuality and dubious fluids alluded to in ‘To Autumn’, although they are both great poems.
// You shouldn’t need to analyse a short passage to find out what it means. //
It’s curious, then, that many members of the legal profession have had lucrative careers doing exactly that. Students of literature, however, are more likely to try to analyse the ‘how’ as opposed to the ‘what’. Keats wrote that ‘a thing of beauty is a joy forever’ and there are few things more beautiful than the English language in the hands of an expert. That’s not to say that a perfectly-executed James Ward-Prowse free kick is not also a thing of beauty - but it is possible to appreciate and enjoy both.
It’s ironic that NJ is so dismissive of poetry and prose when he is clearly well aware of the power of language. His posts are amongst the most carefully-written on this site - despite a curious inability to accept that words can mean more than one thing. I remember one post where he became somewhat irritated when ‘milk’ was used to refer to something other than the fluid produced by lactating mammals. I can understand the need to avoid ambiguity in a legal document, but I believe our language would be far poorer if we had to refer to Milk of Magnesia as ‘Magnesium hydroxide’ or if Lady Macbeth had not described her husband as ‘too full of the milk of human kindness’.
As on many other things, I’m afraid NJ and I are just going to have to disagree on this one. But NJ, you don’t know what you’re missing.
Goodness! I had no idea my simple aversion to poetry and literature would cause such a stir!
I don’t really know where to begin with either of the last two posts and it seems a bit dismissive to ignore them after you have each taken so much time over them. But I’ll give it a go.
First, Mythology. I was encouraged at school to read both the Iliad and the Odyssey. I never really understood why. But having read a few pages of each I quickly realised they were not for me. The clue really is in the overarching genre: they are essentially on the same level as fairy tales. Quite why they, along with all the rest of the ancient Myths, have managed to secure such a foothold in classical teaching is mysterious. But I do know of the Judgement of Paris and I’m always wary of “Greeks bearing gifts” – especially large wooden horses.
I have difficulty with fiction generally. A story has to be at least plausible to gain my interests. So needless to say I have great difficulty with anything that is pure fantasy. And that’s what the Myths are. They sit alongside Peter Pan and Winnie the Pooh. Modern fantasy is just as bad. I believe the “Lord of the Rings” is one of the world’s best sellers. How that happened I'll never know. Must be good marketing. Just the synopsis is enough to send me down to the gun room. If it was ever given to me as a present it would go straight to the charity shop. Life’s too short to read about elves, dwarfs and hobbits.
So really, the consequences of not having read Homer’s two tomes are no different to not having read Mr Tolkien’s efforts. I just don’t know the outcome of a some fairy tales. No big deal and not really a gap in my knowledge I would go to any lengths to address.
I can understand poetry being entertaining to some. It is a particular use of language which goes beyond relating a story, and the words themselves, rather than the plot, become the entertainment. It simply leaves me cold. I feel like grabbing the author by the throat yelling “For God’s sake tell me the bloody story and stop fannying about!”
So there it is. I’ve explained it the best I can (I could write lot more but fear I’ve hijacked the thread enough already). I know it’s strange for some people to grasp. Mrs NJ is appalled and I’m surprised she married such a Philistine, as she is a great fan of most classic and modern literature (though even she baulks at Mythology and Lord of the Rings).
The “milk” thing is more a consumer issue - bit like “vegan steak.” I once almost bought a packet of vegetarian “bacon”, misled by labelling and I’ve never been the same since.
Thanks for the pointer to “A Subaltern’s Love Song”, Atheist. I found it amusing until about verse four or five (of eleven). Then, as is usual with poems and me, it got a bit heavy going and my attention faded a little.
"But NJ, you don’t know what you’re missing."
Believe me, I do. I really do. 🤣
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