Hospital Waiting Lists Down

[nicebloke1]

Good news it appears. No link I'm afraid, I heard this on BBC news this morning, the lowest its ever been. Could this be due to labour settling the strikes, either way very good news.

[New Judge]

"Let me help you NJ. if they have drunks walking through the doors day and night, and they do. Other people will have to wait."

Indeed they do, and you're quite correct - that obviously increases waiting times.

But I only mentioned the drunk in passing. My main concern arising from my experience was the hospital management instructing its staff to falsify records tracking waiting times in A&E - something you described as "defamatory".

As it stands, the NHS has to deal with the health of its patients as they are - not as it would like them to be. This means treating drunks, drug addicts, fat people, smokers et al. That won't be helped by staff falsifying A&E waiting time records so as to give the impression the unit is adequately staffed.

This is very relevant because buried among the recent good news that waiting lists have fallen by a very small amount was the not-so-good news that the numbers waiting more than 12 hours in A&E has increased significanly.

[fripfrip]

How many on the waiting list have died waiting for operations while the greedy little money spiders went on strike.

[naomi24]

Gulliver, there are more than a dozen mods on AB.  Until now I've not been around tonight so I've not removed any posts.  I will remove yours though.  

[Smowball]

Don't know about A & E but I went back to my doctor because I'd never had a follow up appointment to see the pain management clinic re my spine. (I'd had the 1st of a course of spinal injections then never ever got an app for the 2nd, and rest, despite me chasing and chasing it up).Doctor decided to write a brand new from scratch referral for me to be seen urgently. I get a letter last week, saying their waiting lists are incredibly long, and the 1st fate they have to just even see me , not do anything, is in 187 days. Yes they did write 187 days. 

[nicebloke1]

NJ 20.01. Which one are you accusing?

Paragraph 2 of your post, you are accusing management of falsifying waiting time?

Paragraph 3 of your post is accusing staff of falsifying waiting time? 

One of them is being wrongly accused even if we are to believe that this happened? So defamatory is somewhere in the mix. Either way very few A&Es have every hit the 4 hour waiting time since it came into, because its impossible to know how many people will come though that door day or night, and impossible to know how many staff to have on standby on any given day or night.

The 12 hour plus waiting time will continue to increase for the reasons I've already given, that not managements fault or staff. Its fault of people who insist on turning up at A&E with a headache, twisted finger, runny nose, plus the drunks and druggies.

A&E is for Emergency. Breathing problems, chest pains and obdominal pains that are unmanageable.

Maybe they did falsify your visit but I doubt for the reason you believe. Some A&Es have been closed ( FOR NOT HITTING THEIR TIMES) so maybe their were protecting the A&E you where at?

If there was a 20 car pile up on the M25 would the local A&E still achive such targets? A big fat No i guess thats why these targets are idiotic.

[naomi24]

//Paragraph 2 of your post, you are accusing management of falsifying waiting time?

Paragraph 3 of your post is accusing staff of falsifying waiting time? 

One of them is being wrongly accused //

 

Illogical.  If management issue guidelines and instruct staff to follow them they are all culpable.

 

I think A&E departments are far busier now than they ever were because people are finding it so difficult to see their GPs.

[nicebloke1]

I remember Matt Hancock bragging about 13k new medical staff joining the NHS during the latter part of covid, what he failed to imform us of, these were 1st year students with no or little experience of working full time in a hospital. He didnt dee him bragging about thd 20k plus experienced medical staff leaving in the very same year. Fot better prospects in the private sector here and over seas.

Those 20k I dont believe have ever been replaced because of many reasons, the main one I believe was not just pay but the constant abuse medical staff have to put up with.

Should we carry on slagging these people off there will be no staff at all left to slag off. So instead of mad waiting times you will face more closers AND no treatment at all.

Will Keir improve things I really dont know, what I do know is the cons ignored the problems for at least 3 years ( the strikes) and how many people msy have died, well we will never know. At least we have some sort of interest from the present PM.

 

[naomi24]

Your argument appears to have swerved somewhat, nicebloke.  You doubted NJ's recollections because it doesn't suit you to believe it but twiddling with statistics is nothing new.  This from 20 years ago when the last Labour government held the reins - and from a lefty paper too..

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/mar/29/NHS.politics

 

 

 

 

[nicebloke1]

I dont do swerving just stick to the truth.

[naomi24]

Course you do.  

[nicebloke1]

Going back 20 years is somewhat idiotic. We are were we are today.

[naomi24]

Telling the truth and saying it's been going on for years isn't idiotic.  Idiotic is denying it happens.

[New Judge]

"Paragraph 2 of your post, you are accusing management of falsifying waiting time?

Paragraph 3 of your post is accusing staff of falsifying waiting time?"

Does it matter? The policy obviously originates with management. The staff are complicit by acting on it. I’m surprised a whistleblower had not raised it with their union.

“Either way very few A&Es have every hit the 4 hour waiting time since it came into, because its impossible to know how many people will come though that door day or night, and impossible to know how many staff to have on standby on any given day or night.”

Of course it’s impossible. But if you measure it properly and it is hit 95% of the time, that’s reasonable. If it’s hit only 50% of the time I would say that’s not. However, if you falsify the measurement in the way I have described, whatever figure that produces is meaningless.

“I've already given, that not managements fault or staff. Its fault of people who insist on turning up at A&E with a headache, twisted finger, runny nose,…”

Falsifying records is not the fault of patients, however serious or trivial their ailments.  

“Maybe they did falsify your visit…”

There’s no “maybe” about it.

“Some A&Es have been closed ( FOR NOT HITTING THEIR TIMES) so maybe their were protecting the A&E you where at?”

Do you have any evidence for that? Can you find an example  where an A&E department has been closed simply because it didn’t hit its target? What you are saying is that NHS management has said “That A&E is so overwhelmed. It never hits its targets. Best thing would be to close it”. Whilst that would not entirely surprise me (nothing does with the NHS) I have never heard of such a decision, so perhaps you could help me out a little.

“If there was a 20 car pile up on the M25 would the local A&E still achive such targets?”

I am beginning to wonder, as somebody on the “Leap in unemployment rate” thread suggested, whether you have some fundamental difficulty understanding what people write, or you are simply being obtuse and antagonistic.

Of course an event like you describe will affect the local A&E target times. I have never suggested they should always be met – that would be impossible without having busloads of staff simply waiting around to be taken wherever necessary and nobody expects that. But without extraordinary events the target should be met most of the time and over a period of months the peaks and roughs should iron out. 

My criticism was the deliberate falsification of recording A&E waiting times. Your contention (without any evidence) that it might have been done to save the unit from closure is simply ridiculous. The only effect such an exercise would have is to paint a far better picture than actually existed so as to deceive senior managers, politicians and the wider public that everything was running smoothly. It was a scandalous episode and is indicative of the shambles that the NHS has been for a long time togeher with the muddled thinking of some of its staff.

“Should we carry on slagging these people off there will be no staff at all left to slag off.”

Once again I am not slagging off staff. I am criticising the organisation as a whole which, for some unexplained reason, seems to have acquired the status of a religion in the UK.

[nicebloke1]

Does it matter? It sure does.

 I'm being Antagonistic? not at all. I just don't agree with many many of the points / accussiations you make, especially towards NHS staff and management without solid proof/ evidence.

[New Judge]

"Does it matter? It sure does."

Why?

I blame both management for introducing the policy and the staff for implementing it so arguing whether I said one or the other is pointless.

" I just don't agree with many many of the points / accussiations you make,"

I'm only really making one - that is the falsification of he waiting time measure during the time I attended hospital. 

If you choose to disbelieve me that's your privilege. But reading the article that naomi posted (which I wasn't aware of when I first posted about this) it seems there was widespread "fiddling" of A&E figures by one method or another so my obseervation does no seem so outrageous.

Of course you could always disbelieve that article as well. 

[nicebloke1]

I dont see it as being pointless especially with such a serious accussiation. A member of front line staff maybe completely oblivious to any scsm that YOU think is happening.

If you feel that theres such a scam going on, why dont you act on it?

I disbelieve most if not all of what I see in the media, whether that be now or 20 years ago.

[New Judge]

"A member of front line staff maybe completely oblivious to any scsm that YOU think is happening."

I doesn't matter why it was being done. Anyone with an iota of nous could see that to do what was done simply cannot be for any legitimate reason. Can you think of any reason why a patient should be checked out and re-admitted after four hours - bearing in mind that coincidentally happened to be the A&E target waiting time - apart from your ludicrous suggestion that it was to save the unit from closure, that is?

"If you feel that theres such a scam going on, why dont you act on it?"

It was about eight years ago and I shouldn't think it's still going on. I think the NHS long ago abandoned any ambition that its A&E waiting time would regularly be less than four hours.

[nicebloke1]

It doesn't matter why it was being done? They why are you bleating on about it 8 year on? I take it  you got treated for your problem so either way, had you not then I may understand the ranting.

The 4 hour turnover boiled out by 2013/14. Maybe you were re- booked in for the following shift.  Hope this helps

[nicebloke1]

My op question still remains unanswered.

Could the reduction be down to settling the strikes?