Why do we know about.....

[Goodsoulette]

When guys in the forces do something "wrong" whilst at war why do get to hear about it?

Take this Iraqi soldier abuse, I understand that it is no way to behave but I just think that we (the general public) know too much and that what goes on out there should stay out there. These guys are tried for their crimes differently I assume because a "normal" court cant understand the kind of pressures and influences these boys are under, so should these things stay out of the papers except under exceptional circumstances?

I am open to changing my mind, I just want to know what good people think it serves for us to know about it.

[natalie_1982]

I think we should know asoften we are told about how awful the other soldiers are, and what they do to their prisoners, etc. I would love to know esxactly what we do. I think we are fed so much sh*t that the media are probably holding back a lot more than we know already. I don't know really if this is a good thing or not, but I would be interested to know what other countries think of us, not what our media tells us other countries think of us?

[sp1814]

I don't think any of us who haven't fought in battle could ever know the pressures these soldiers are under. I know I couldn't do what they do.

The problem is, whenever we see reports such as the one on TV last night, we know that insurgents will take them as proof of the way all British soldiers act in Iraq, and that's just not the case.

Swift action against those involved will, I hope, go to restore the reputation of the British army, the vast, vast majority of whom are decent and incredibly brave.

[AliFlump]

Thing is they always show the pics of the abuse but you dont know what the Iraqi's have done before. Apparently the Iraqi's were throwing stones at the soliders. I know its not the best way to react but it wasnt unprovoked

The soliders risk their life to help these people and thats what they get.

[sp1814]

I'm afraid that the 'liberation' of Iraqis wasn't the primary goal of the US led invasion.

I really, really don't think that the US was in it for purely altruistic reasons.

If they were, there's a whole load of other oppressed people in the world who could do with a hand, but unfortunately, they ain't got no oil.

Sorry to sound so cynical, but I think the soldiers on the ground are being used by fat blokes in London and Washington to safeguard enonomic interests in the region...

[jake-the-peg]

If we're seeing this sort of behaviour from our troops because there's visual evidence on camera how much is going on that is not filmed and witnessed?

Or are prisoner beatings only ever carried out on camera?

We have to know what's going on because it's our good name that these uniformed thugs (I won't call them soldiers) are dragging through the dirt

[johnlambert]

We hear about it because we live in a democracy. It happens in ALL armies, it happened when I served in Northern Ireland, 1st Gulf war + Bosnia.

You are all correct in saying that is shouldnt happen but it does and it allways will.Only in the UK and USA will the press report it though, belive me, if it was chinese trops, or russian or even french squaddie you wouldnt hear a peep about it

[sp1814]

Actually, what's most disturbing about the clip isn't the soldiers beating up those kids, but the reaction of the cameraman (no idea if he was a soldier).

Really quite...degenerate.

But as I've said before - I couldn't do their job. I don't want to inform on their behaviour because their eyes have seen things that would turn me into a gibbering wreck. I'm brave, but I'm not brave enough to go to war and kill.

Few of us are.

[Doggy2]

These so called soldiers (thugs) go and beat the crap out of Iraqis and you would expect the people you call insurgents to sit there, have a cup of tea and say thank you??? What planet are you guys from? And don't give me this crap that the soldiers are under the pressure. That is B sh1t. It is one thing doing your duty as a soldier, it is another being a racist thug and blame it on that they are under pressure. sp1814 you're spot on by saying "the 'liberation' of Iraqis wasn't the primary goal of the US led invasion". This is about oil. So many other countries are suffering oppression. What have we done for those that ain't got oil.

[GruntFuttock]

Like Bosnia do you mean Doggy?-how much oil was there when our brave soldiers risked their lives to save thousands of Muslim lives?

According to the news these soldiers had just had a hand grenade tossed into their barracks.What do you expect them to do, pat the Iraqi thugs on the back?

[Grunty]

Of course sp1814 is right, but unfortunately our army is in Iraq whether we like it or not. While it is in a foreign country it should be keeping to the principles of fairness that we once thought we taught to the world. As it is, they are copying the worst of the opposite side. I wonder where their officers were hiding at the time.

[Goodsoulette]

I wholeheartedly agree with John, I think it is military business not ours. These guys are going to get shamed by our press, I am sure in retrospect they are ashamed of what they have done.

Would we have won the second world war if our soldiers were subject to this much press coverage giving away every tiny detail. Would we be soo proud of our grandparents too for fighting for the country if we knew what they got up to. Probably not!

War is a totally diferent situation and as I am not prepared to go over there and fight myself, I dont feel I can judge their actions.

[sp1814]

I don't want to sound like I'm condoning the actions of the soldiers in the video clip - I just don't want to think of them as representative of the rest of the forces out there.

I think when all is said and done - Iraq is 'Vietnam II'. It's an absolute pig's ear of a situation at the blame lie squarely at two bloke's feet...and no matter how much they they try to squirm their way out of it, this will be their legacy.

[Doggy2]

NO Grunt. I mean countries outside Europe. Look at Africa, Zimbabwe, Rwanda...

When we go and invade another country without a proper exit strategy this is the mess we will find ourseleves. Iraq is a quagmire and we are right in the middle of it. If you ask Iraqis now if they are happy with the british and american troops to stay in their country they will say no! The stories we hear of soldiers mistreating iraqi prisoners and iraqis only touches the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more that is not mentioned by the media.

[GruntFuttock]

How do you know?

[Goodsoulette]

^^^^^ @ Doggy..

I am not being sarcastic or awkward when I ask this, honestly!!

How do you know that they dont want them there?

Would the whole place just not go into utter chaos, leaving the gap open for another crazy dictator to take over. So that we can then ignore whatever is happening over there again for too long.

I dont think we exactly invaded rwanda, I was under the impression that they were killing all the men, raping all the women infecting tham with hiv and now it is paractically a country of orphans as all the mothers are dying from aids. I think its a shame the UN didnt invade a bit sooner.

[Supernick]

I may be about to break my liberal leanings for just about the first time ever, so may need a sit down after this, but I can't help but thinking that the problem with this isn't in the beatings so much, but purely with the media leaking it. I can't really condone someone being beaten 40 times with a baton, but to be honest, if I was throwing bricks and stones at soldiers, then I would expect a bit more than a cuff round the ear. This to me seems to be very much removed from the beating and humiliation of detained prisoners as with the Abu Ghraib scandal for the Americans, and is more just a case of going over the top in giving someone a hiding after being attacked yourself.

[Doggy2]

By talking to a group of iraqis in this country who tell me of their personal experiences and the current situation in Iraq. And I am not talking about the govenrment officials or puppets on the media who are told by americans what they should do or say. Iraq saga is a big mess whether you want to accept it or not.I just find it reach for some people whose knowledge of Iraq is limited to watch the news and call all the moslems extremists to qualify for an opinion on WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN IRAQ. And yes it is quite convenient to sit in your house post things on this thread have a cup of coffee and analyse things without having the full picture of the story. Man this world sucks and so do all the gullible humans.

[Doggy2]

Goodsoulette.........You have obviously not read my post clearly. If I have not made that clear to you I am sorry. But my point was that exactly because ther are so many other crimes happening in Rwanda, Zimbabwe and other places we should exactly concentrate on those places. But then again what economical gain would we get of trying to save people in those places. Hmmm...

[GruntFuttock]

oooer Doggy-forgotten to take your tablets this morning have you?

Or are you just feeling a bit wuff?

[Drusilla]

I think we need to know about these matters because we live in a free and open society, not a police state and dictatorship that accepts this type of practice as commonplace.
The soldiers concerned have not only shamed themselves and their units, they have actually endangered the lives of servicemen who follow them into these locations.
I think the press revelations will merely anger the wider Moslem community and embarrass the British. I don't think it will have a great effect on the people in the town concerned because they will already know what has happened and the TV footage will merely confirm their existing viewpoint of the British soldiers.
We are expecting young soldiers who are trained to fight other professional soldiers to act with the restraint of a police force. I would like to know what their NCO's and officers were doing at the time and hope they too are held to account over this matter.
Iraq is such a tragedy because we could have freed an oppressed people and made a lot of friends in this part of the world. Unfortunately, western politicians slavered over oil wealth and didn't bother to examine the complexities of the country, it's people or it's religious and cultural divides.