Middle East, Rules of War.

[Lonnie]

I know this is from one side only, but after reading , can you give your opinion please?. http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Th e_Rules_of_War.asp

[Big Al1st]

Hi Lonnie, Where did you dig that up from. Interesting reading.
However I can only go along with about ten percent of what was said. Every country does have a right to defend themselves but with what measures. I wonder what would have been said if we had bombed Dublin in the same way when the troubles were on.
With regards to terrorism, what have they got to say about the bombing of St Davids Hotel killing nearly 90 people, mostly British soldiers. This was carried out by the Irgun/Stern Terrorist Group. Couple of weeks ago they wanted to put a placard up celebrating the event.
Agreed they drop leaflets telling everyone to get out, only after they have bombed the roads. Also if people do try and escape they are liable to be bombed.
I am not taking sides but I sometimes think that the Israelis have a short memory. Blitkrieg comes to mind.

[Lonnie]

Hi Big Al1st, thanks for the way you've replied, I agree implicitly with what you say about the King David Hotel, in retrospect, (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not), they didn't need to do it, the formation of the state of Israel would've happened anyway.

As for Blitzkrieg, certainly, thats what it was meant to be, short and sharp, the reason it didn't happen that way, is stated very well in that article, they've hidden themselves in civilian area's, and we get the results of that every day in the news.

[Big Al1st]

Hi Lonnie, Agree with you. I think the most worrying aspect is that this action is turning the rank and file Lebanese into followers of Hezballah.
I just watched the news incidentally and the Lebanese have rejected the UN Proposal, and I can understand why. It took 18 years to get Israel out of southern Lebanon.
I do think that the Israelis make alot of problems for themselves e.g. taking of land, setting up settlements and being too pally with the US. Where they are situated they have to try and get on with the countries around them and not be seen to be hanging on the strings of USA.

Changing the subject see another British Soldier got killed in Afghanistan. God knows when it will all stop. Two of my Grandsons are at boot camp and will finish their Army Training soon.

I think the world would be better off without religion!
Back to my cider now I've let off steam Al

[Lonnie]

Hi Al, thanks for your thoughts, i'll join you, mines a Spitfire.

[Grunty]

Another problem with the leaflet drops is that the poorest people have no transport and can't afford what they will be charged to travel.

Mine's a Spitfire as well. I remember that brewery taking beer past my school on a steam wagon.

[Lonnie]

Hi Grunty, yes, I read that also, and it is a problem, but I would've thought that Hezbollah would assist in getting non-combatants to safety.

Spitfire, excellent brew isn't it.

[Playbill]

Yes Lonnie, Hezbollah could help civilians move. They own taxi and bus companies so I would have thought they are in a good position to transport people away. But then they would make easier targets of themselves, so it is unlikely they will do so.

[jno]

I think this is to do with 'asymmetric warfare', Lonnie. When small groups take on big countries, they see no reason to abide by the big countries' rules. (I wonder if Israelis recall the story of David and Goliath.) To make matters worse, both parties on this occasion (and the USA as well) believe very firmly that they have God on their side, which allows them to disregard what others might regard as ethical responsibilities - after all, if it's in God's name, it must be okay, mustn't it?

The USA makes much of wanting to encourage the growth of democracy in the Middle East. The tragedy of all this is that this was actually happening in Lebanon, which is now being destroyed by the USA's greatest ally. I fear, like Big Al, that this will be a great recruiting campaign for Hizbollah.

[Lonnie]

Playbill, thats a fair point.

jno, yours also, is a good point, I think its already a recruiting point, as for the USA, and no-one comes out of this without any blame, I believe, probably as many others do, that they must take the Lions share of the blame, because they could stop it virtually at any time, and they don't. We know why, but innocents, mostly in Lebanon and Palestine, are being killesd on both sides.

[PhilBy]

Hmm, an interesting article Lonnie. If you click on the authors name you will see in 2005 he saw things rather differently. The following is a small quote .......

"The short-term battle against the terrorists is ultimately a cost-benefit analysis of lives lost versus lives saved by a given operation. Preventing collateral damage while targeting terrorists is therefore essential; during the past five years of conflict, Israel often declined to attack terrorist leaders when they were in densely populated areas for fear of inflicting collateral damage. Terrorism can be fought surgically -- focusing exclusively on the terrorists"

[Big Al1st]

Mmmm Two faced or what?
By the way it's amazing what articles are dug up on AB

[jno]

maybe two-faced, Big Al, or maybe changing his mind as circumstances change, which is not necessarily hypocritical.

[Lonnie]

Thats another good point jno has made, and one that should be remembered in our private lives, as well as authors of articles.

[PhilBy]

If it is indeed a change of mind from General Moshe Yaalon then it is a shame, last year he seemed to talk with wisdom........

"Decision makers must always be cognizant of implications of counterterrorism for the terrorists' constituents; measures that do not adequately consider the hardships imposed on civilians will neither create greater security nor advance the long-term vision of peaceful coexistence in the region. "

[HappyBear]

i read the article and agree with the principle of the premise of the peice. Isn't it obvious that Hezbollah need to fight in the way they do otherwise they would face certain defeat and the loss of their cause if they fought an 'open war' in the way that Ireael clerly would prefer?

[Big Al1st]

HI jno Me again, agree with your sentiment except where it applies to Israel.
Israel is in a difficult position politically and geographically but does nothing to endrear itself to it's neighbours.Question when is a terrorist not a terrorist. Some people would say terrorists can be people who take other peoples land. My dictionary describes terrorism as use of violence or intimidation by underground groups "or a means to obtain political objectives". This is what I mean by Iraelis appearing to be two faced.
Also they change their minds and attitudes at the behest of the USA who currently is probably the biggest terrorist orgaination in the world when it comes to achieving their political objectives. Iraq being one point and backing Israel another.

If Lonnie and Grunty reading this never had Spitfire. How about e-mailing a bottle over Rgds Al

[Lonnie]

Hi BigAl, A good last post, I won't reply to it, because it would take me half the night, but regarding the Spitfire, our local Somerfields sell it, so you may be able to get it in some other Supermarket, expensive, bottled, but worth it.