No confidence

[4GS]

Since Brown took over the office of Prime Minister from Bliar we have had: Terrorist attacks Foot + mouth outbreaks Shameless stealing of Conservative + Liberal party ideas Northern Rock fiasco Child benefit fiasco Party funding scandal Labour trailing the Conservatives in the polls How long until there is a vote of 'No Confidence' in the P.M?

[Reverandfunk]

Wont mention the record unemployment under the conservatives Mrs T lol i pity you fool

Politicians are all as bad as each other as soon as I hear this government is rubbish mentioned I start to doze because all govts are exactly the same. To55ers

[Kromovaracun]

Because Major was exactly the same as Wilson. Or Thatcher was exactly the same as Heath. Politicians do lie, but they're not really much different from anyone else in positions of power or responsibility - they're just the ones the media pays all its attention to. It's true you get slimebags and liars but like any other group you do get genuine people. But that doesn't sell any papers.

Reply to naomi:

the country has slid progressively downhill ever since

I think you're being melodramatic. I'm not a New Labour fanboy (I'm very condemning of certain aspects of the NL government) but they're not nearly as bad as the tabloids pretend they are. It's fun for the press to constantly badger on about decline - but when you have a look at New Labour's legacy, it's not nearly as bad as they say it is. Let's take a look, shall we? Remember - I'm just looking at things specific to New Labour

Domestic:

The Good:
Introduction of first minimum wage since 1914
Despite its messy and inefficient application at first, working family tax credit has proved very effective in decreasing unemployment.
Independance of Bank of England.

The Bad:
Blair's ludicrous 'database' scheme for the NHS costing billions.
More centralisation.
Cash-for-peerages.

Overall some minor success - not great by any means, but certainly not disastrous as naomi makes out.

Foreign analysis to come in another post.

[Kromovaracun]

Note: This is all coming off the top of my head. I may forget some stuff, so bring it up if I do.

Foreign:

The Good:
Deployment of troops in Sierra Leone
Intervention in Afghanistan (had pretty widespread public support and international support but Iraq has shamefully taken precedence. Could have gone very well.)
Intervention in the Balkans
Good Friday Agreement (arguably not foreign, but I'm putting it here anyway).

The Bad:
IRAQ

Some minor successes, but most of NL's foreign successes are rather overruled by the gigantic disaster of the Iraq war.

So, overall New Labour has had some minor successes generally, with one really big disaster. They've made plenty of mistakes and deserve to be resoundingly condemned for them but they're not really any worse than any previous government we've had, and there's not much outside of tabloid hysteria to indicate genuine decline attributable to New Labour.

[MrsT]

Kromovacuum, me the same as Heath? You have to be blind deaf and dumb if you think that. He was as wet as a haddocks a55. Compare how we dealt with the Unions for reference.

That wasn't unemployment Rev that was non jobs created by your lefty mates because it was all but illegal to fire anyone. I just cut out the chaff!

[naomi24]

Krom, I don't believe I'm being over-dramatic, or making anything up - and since I don't read the tabloids I don't believe I'm afflicted with tabloid hysteria either. Those who work for a living are being screwed into the ground with more and more taxes, much of which is being grossly mismanaged and totally wasted; immigration figures are unknown and we have illegal immigrants working in government security; our NHS is buckling; our hospitals are filthy; NHS dentists are thin on the ground, and if you can find one, unless you are on benefits, treatment costs a small fortune; kids are leaving school unable to read and write; police spend their time form-filling instead of tackling crime, unless of course it's a driving offence and then they're quick to act because it's an easy one for their figures, since like all public services, they are working to impossible government targets; our private lives are being interfered with to the extent that dustbin police are now checking our garbage to ensure we're putting the right things in the right bins; council workers will soon be given authority to enter our homes and snoop around taking pictures in order to reassess our council tax; databases of our dna are being compiled, and we will soon have to complete a lengthy form every time we want to leave to country stating, amongst other things, where we're going and where we're staying. This government is interfering in every aspect of our lives and our personal freedoms are being systematically eroded. In my opinion this country has not only gone downhill since the advent of New Labour - it's gone completely to pot.

[Kromovaracun]

Kromovacuum, me the same as Heath? You have to be blind deaf and dumb if you think that

I was being sarcastic. It was a response to the claim above that 'all politicians are the same' - I was using yourself and Heath as an example of 2 politicians entirely unalike.

naomi: I'll respond to your post in a bit. I haven't finished reading it yet.

[Kromovaracun]

Remember that I'm attacking the notion of decline - ergo things specifically getting worse due to New Labour.

Those who work for a living are being screwed into the ground with more and more taxes, much of which is being grossly mismanaged and totally wasted

Fair enough - I'll give you higher indirect taxation as a criticism of New Labour. But it's still not the crisis or decline you make it out to be - and New Labour are far, far, far from being alone in this respect. If you have an issue with efficiency in public services, that is a problem related to over-centralisation. For which you can blame MrsT, not New Labour...

immigration figures are unknown and we have illegal immigrants working in government security

Personally, I'm pro-immigration but I do agree that illegal immigration needs better administration. Again, not at all unique to New Labour.

our NHS is buckling; our hospitals are filthy

You'd rather there be no NHS? The NHS isn't much worse now than it was 20 years ago - true, it's certainly not as good as it could/should be, but it's not as bad as you're making out. And that problems within it - relating mostly to management - are fixable. Plus note the excellent response of the NHS after the 7/7 bombings.

Continued in next post.

[Kromovaracun]

police spend their time form-filling instead of tackling crime, unless of course it's a driving offence and then they're quick to act because it's an easy one for their figures

Again, an issue due to over-centralisation of public services on the part of the central government. This was done by the Tories long before New Labour came to power.

databases of our dna are being compiled,

In order to give the national police a shared pool of information in order to break down organisational divisions within the police force in order to grant speedier capture of criminals where DNA evidence is involved. I'd agree with you if they were proposing to intern anybody without trial on mere suspicion of crime (as they do with terrorist suspects...). But they're not.

This government is interfering in every aspect of our lives and our personal freedoms are being systematically eroded

Blair has indeed been responsible for limiting personal liberties, but - as daft as that is - we're far from being the police state that you make it out to be. The UK's judiciary still stands strong and New Labour have made admirable (though perhaps mishandled) efforts to ensure greater independance for the judiciary.

[naomi24]

I won't argue Krom, I've said my piece, but I will just add I absolutely detest this government, I hate what they've done to this country and I will never, ever, vote Labour again. However, If you want to continue to put your trust in them and to carry on finding excuses for them, then that's your choice.

[Kromovaracun]

Fair enough naomi. Thanks for the debate anyway.

Just for the record on my position, though, I'm not trying to 'find excuses' - I strongly dislike a lot of things about New Labour (Iraq, Cash-for-peerages, 'Spin', Database scheme and poorly-directed funding of NHS etc.) I just think they're far from being the worst administration ever and that it's unfair to blame them for things they didn't do (and to ignore the achievements they've had).

[naomi24]

Good morning Krom, oops, sorry .... after reading your last post, it seems I haven't finished. A couple of extra thoughts. You say it's unfair to blame New Labour for things they didn't do. I presume that means, as you said before, that the previous Conservative government is to blame. Oh dear. How many times do we hear Labour's supporters bleating out this old cherry in defence of this appalling government? Yes, it's certainly true that the Conservatives did initiate the rot in many areas, but for how long do New Labour think they can continue this 'don't blame us' plea and expect to be let off the hook? They've had years to reverse the last Conservative government's bad decisions, and sort it out - but, quite simply, they haven't.

Further, you say it is far from being the worst administration ever - but I'll tell you this. I am quite genuinely afraid for the future of this country because this government scares the hell out of me.

[fletcher.5]

Dear tabloid reader. What terrorist attack?Your foot appears to have been put in your own mouth. The so called stealing of other party ideas is an inovation that should be congratulated.
Never mind that these MPs milk ing the system. let them ALL contribute to the common cause for the good of the people. No PM has ever created Utopia, but if these bickering MPs can prise their egotistical heads out of their backsides & create something between ALL of them then perhaps we, the public may have more confidence in them.
(having said all that, I am P------ in the wind)

[Lonnie]

Hi John,

Sorry its taken me so long to get onto this, I must have missed it, and only just managing to get onto the pms, naomi thought I should take a look at it.

This link, was put up by me, in a past life, and i still believe it, only you can add 'Destruction of the UK now, only its taking a different form to the one I thought it would take, but the end result will be the same,

Started under Blai, and continuing under the incompetant Brown,

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question17 3441.html