Should the time limit for late abortions be lowered to say around 12 weeks instead of the current legal limit of up to 24 weeks ?

[enigma]

A recent article in the Daily Record newspaper featured a couple who were told to abort their foetus at 24 weeks as it had stopped growing at 22 weeks in the womb and the mother had developed pre-eclampsia , a life threatening condition to herself and unborn child. The baby was born weighing just over 1lb but now weighs over 5 lbs and has returned home to her overjoyed mum and dad - posing the question , if babies can be saved at 22 weeks then should abortions be allowed up to 24 weeks of pregnancy. Surely the "mother" should know long before this stage that she does not wish to keep her baby ? I am currently 24 weeks pregnant so this subject has greatly affected me and I find the whole matter of abortion very disturbing.

[Drewhound]

I assume you mean the baby was born not aborted (of course it was stupid me otherwise it'd be dead duh) Babies can be saved at any age by simply letting them survive in the womb, there isn't a specific age when that doesn't hold true. It's a difficult problem, we, my lovely boss and I, would never countenance an abortion but I'd have a great moral problem with forcing someone else to hold my views on it

[bernardo]

Yes. I am pro-choice but medical advances mean that the 24-week limit is no longer suitable. I would put it at 15 or 18 weeks; I think 12 would probably be too restrictive.

[enigma]

Just to clarify , I fully intend to keep my baby and this is indeed a planned pregnancy. I have two other children and could never consider abortion as an option for myself but I do firmly believe that there are are certain mitigating circumstances where I can understand why a women may consider this as her only option such as rape for example where the women has already suffered an horrendous ordeal and allowing a pregnancy to flourish could result in serious psychological damage to the woman. There is also the debate about " quality of life" but I have a problem with that because who decides what quality of life IS and where do you draw the line ? This is indeed a very grey area debate and one which will never have everyone in agreement but what my gripe is and probably haven't managed to articulate well enough (mainly due to lack of sleep), is why do women wait until so far in to pregnancy to terminate ? Surely they should know long before this stage that they do not wish to keep thir child ? It also poses the question about medical ethics - If a child can survive outside of the womb at 22 weeks - as opposed to the 24 week stage when babies are classed as "viable" - should doctors be allowed to perform abortions as late as 24 weeks ? I watched a documentary about this subject several years ago and it stuck in my mind because I was oddly enough 24 weeks pregnant with my first child then and was disturbed by what I saw. Womwn terminating because it interfered with their social life , doctors reduced to tears at having to perform this operation on one hand and saving premature babies on another and the proceedure itself - administering a fatal injection into the baby's heart to kill at , then literally taking it apart piece by piece from the womb. How can this possibly be legal ? Surely this is tantamount to infaticide ?

[enigma]

That should read infanticide , not infaticide. Yes I know that there are other mistakes too. Deary me , my spelling is atrocious at this time of night or rather morning. I really should go to bed now. Before I do though , I would also like to point out though - before anyone jumps down my throat and accuses me of taking the moral high ground - I wholeheartedly support a woman's right to choose what happens to her body and accept that this is not a decision taken lightly by most women who opt for abortion , seeing it sadly as a last resort. Also , I would hate to see the day where women were forced into back street clinics to be butchered. I just can not understand however WHY a woman would wait so far into her pregnancy to terminate and I would question her motives - if not health related - for doing so. AT 24 weeks , a baby can hear it's "mother's" voice , has lungs which are preparing to breathe air rather than fluid , has all the proportions of a newborn baby except with a thinner layer of skin , will open it's eyes in a few weeks time can survive with specialist neo-natal care and can move around inside the womb and the kicking movements can be felt by it's "mother". How can a woman feel that and remain detached enough to continue with an abortion if mot health related ?

[tracymort]

i personally wouldn't like there to be any social abortions at all. I do think 24 weeks is way too high, a baby can be born and survive then. i'd like to see it lowered to 12 weeks. that's just my op though!

[saffstar]

I agree that the time limit should be reduced. There was a program on radio 4 recently on this subject; apparently, although Britain was one of the first countries to legalise abortion, unfortunately, since then, the abortion laws have remained largely unchanged. In some other European countries, where the legislation is more recent, the limit is 12/14 weeks, but women can get an abortion 'on demand', rather than having to get the ok from two doctors (which obviously slows up the process). I think things like the Abortion Act should be a work in progress and be reviewed every time there is a relevant new development, like the new scans that have shown babies below the abortion age limit smiling & sucking their thumbs. I am pro-choice, but I think things need do to be changed.

[Philtaz]

I USED to be pro choice but haven't been since I began work in the Operating Theatre 12 years ago. I have no problem with abortions that have to be performed for the sake of the unborn(severe deformities etc) but grew tired of seeing so many people abuse the system and use it as another form of contraception. An abortion(especially a late one) is one of the most gruesome sights imaginable. When you see a child(I use that word because some are too well formed to be called in layman's terms a foetus) ripped from a womb and you can see fingers, toes, ribs and in some cases hair it leaves a lasting impression and I often felt I was present at the scene of a murder. I am no longer present when abortions are performed as I exercised my right not to, though one senior member of staff tried to brow-beat me as being 'judgemental'. I pointed out that I was not judging anybody, I just didn't want to be present during abortions. As I've stated too many use it as a form of contraception, having 2 and 3 abortions. Is htere really an excuse in this day and age when AIDS and STD's are so prevalent and condoms and all other forms of contraception are so readily available to all and sundry?

[Greedyfly]

I am apposed to any abortion - the only way I believe anyone has a right to abort a baby is if the mother was raped. In short NO COMMENT!

[Doolallygirl]

I went through an abortion when I was 17 years old. I wasn't raped. I was naive. I thought it wouldn't happen to me. And I left it until just over a month into the pregnancy before seeing my doctor about an abortion. This meant that I was 12 weeks gone before I managed to go into hospital for the procedure. I was young and scared but I knew that there was no way I could bring a child into this world under those circumstances. It wasn't wanted. I had no income and there was no way my father would have provided for my child. I'm not saying I was forced to have an abortion, there are always ways around problems, but I think it was the right choice I made for the situation I was in at the time. If people aren't complaining about young girls having abortions then they are complaining about the amount of young mothers there are around at the moment. You can't win if you are faced with the dilema I was. I do believe that the limit should be 12 weeks. 3 months is easily enough time to decide whether you want a baby or not. I also believe that it should be allowed for parents of a child who would have no quality of life. Why put yourself and the child through the torture of its life? I learnt my lesson though, albeit the hard way. I never regret having the abortion, but it doesn't stop me thinking about what might have happened had I not realised and acted so quickly.

[nykkieberry]

I am pro-choice but I do believe the abortion limit is too high. 12 weeks is ample - for me, it crosses the border from the abortion of cells to the murder of a child. The medical process should be reviewed so that abortions are undertaken much more quickly in the interest of the unborn child. I can't imagine going through an abortion - i fell pregnant at the end of a relationship in 1999 - i considered abortion but the father persuaded me to keep my baby. We split up when he was 9 months old. Now I have the most beautiful, gorgeous child. I have no regrets and i am so glad that my maternal instincts overcame the practical considerations of it not being the right time, not having any money, being young, just stating my career and yes, not being able to have a full social life. When I feel pregnant I thought my life was over - my life was actually beginning. My son makes every single day worthwhile and any other concerns pale into insignificance. I don't think abortion is ever an easy choice - and both the mother and unborn child should be fully considered and supported. This includes making the process as timely and comfortable as possible.

[el duerino]

given everyones preoccupation with the baby's ability to survive outside of the mother, is this the right benchmark for what is essentially a moral decision? what happens when the baby can be removed as soon as it is conceived? and would this not in itself prove that life begins at conception? merely because the foetus takes on human attributes does not mean it is any more 'human' than at any other stage of its development. if i recall correctly the 24 week mark was set mainly for the safety of the mother, and not for the child. i may be wrong on that count. thoughts?

[Doolallygirl]

El duerino, I think most people see a 12 week old foetus as just that a foetus. It doesn't contain many of the features of a "baby" or "human" at that stage. It does not have limbs or organs at that stage. At 24 weeks a foetus is more like a baby (as mentioned before, at this stage the baby has limbs, ribs, hair etc). I think that if the "mother" believes that the foetus doesn't have any organs it isn't "murder" as so many people put it. I didn't feel like a "murderer" because I knew that the thing that was in me was in my mind too small to be a "baby" yet.

[el duerino]

sure, but what I am essentially saying is that the physical development of a human body is a very small part of what makes us human. Very few people now consider a body the main part of humanity, there are a tremendous array of other factors which are ignored in this abortion debate. Let me ask you another question; does the emergence of arms and legs between 12-24 weeks of development classify the foetus as human? Does a baby who never grows arms and legs remain human or never become human? If an adult loses their limbs, why are they still human as opposed to a baby who has not developed them? There is more to the label of humanity than physical characteristics.

[enigma]

I take your point on board doolallygirl. You are of course right. Society does tend to judge young girls who fall pregnant out of wedlock - especially when they end up as single mothers , who are accused of bleeding the government dry and being the root of all evil as far as a lot of men (and women)are concerned. This is of course nonsense. The majority of hard working single mothers out there bravely soldier on , doing their best for their kids and struggling by on a pittance. (Another common myth is that single mothers live an extravagant lifestyle - not if they are existing on benefits and looking after their kids properly they're not) Some of my friends are single mothers through circumstances beyond their control ie partner leaving them at the sound of the patter of tiny feet bringing about cold feet , death of a partner and just relationships irretrievably broken down. That's the problem with stereotypes - they give no scope for individual circumstances and lump people together as if they are the are the scourge of society and the root of all evil. I feel that it is so sad that a woman would abort her unborn child because she was too scared to rear her child alone and had no support network to speak of who could offer her help. Having been fortunate enough to always have had a loving husband by my side who was most supportive of all my pregnancies , I try not to judge others for their decision to terminate although I must admit that it fills me with such distaste.

[enigma]

I understand what you are saying el duerino but I think that what most people recognise is that there is a point where the foetus is more recognisable in it's human characteristics and able to function in the womb , similarly to a newborn baby as opposed to being a mass of cells. I would like to point out however that a foetus IS fully formed at 12 weeks and has all it's limbs in place , however to reiterate a point which I made earlier , at 24 weeks it can hear , kick and survive with specialist neo-natal care. This is what makes most people uncomfortable. If you were to take your point to the most literal of meanings about the foetus being human at conception , where would you draw the line ? Banning the morning after pill on the grounds that conception may have taken place and therefore resulted in human life being formed ? For that matter then , surely ALL women would be "murdering" a potential baby by having a period , thus shedding an egg and not havving allowed mother nature to take it's course. The 24 week mark for the baby being "viable" is set as a recognised stage when the baby can potentially survive if born at this stage. Before this , it is thought that the baby's lungs are not well enough developed and therefore immature in coping with being able to breathe air as opposed to amniotic fluid. The point is , a baby could not survive if born at 12 weeks but could hold it's own in a fight for life at 24 weeks. The point which I was making el duerino is the dilemma faced by doctors up and down the country who are battling every day to save human life and yet being ethically bound to destroy it at the same stage in pregnancy due to it being unwanted. Philtaz said that performing this proceedure was like being present at a murder scene. Poor you Philtaz and well done for standing your ground and not bowing down to pressure to perform this awful task.

[vittoria]

I thought (and Philtaz may well tell me it is not so with his hospital experience) that late abortions were only ever performed in extreme cases such as where it is discovered at a late stage that the foetus is developing without a brain, hence it has zero chance of survival if born. If that is so, it puts a different perspective on it.

[Philtaz]

It's usually the case vittoria though I've seen late one's performed either through sheer lying about the dates and/or collusion between with the Gynaecologist and patient i.e. the patient decided initially to continue the pregnancy but changed their mind a week or even a month later on. The feigned surprise of the Gynaecologist at the developed state of the aborted foetus was something I found extremely disgusting. And before anyone says " I can't believe that happens in the NHS" I'd have to say you don't know the half...........

[el duerino]

yes enigma but however you miss the main thrust of my post, my fault. the baby can only survive at 24 weeks due to advances in medical technology - incubators etc. Soon medical technology will develop to a point where a baby can be kept alive from conception outside the human body. Are we to judge a human alive only when it can survive without medical aid? This will of course necessitate ignoring the elderly and chronically ill who only remain alive through this same science. At this time the age limit is set by technology, do not confuse it with a scientific moral standpoint. The size of a human is irrelevant to its humanity. The formation of physical human characteristics is irrelevant to its humanity. At what point do we determine the foetus human? When it gets big enough and develops arms and legs. This is wrong and a misguided moral viewpoint. Would you be comfortable taking a morning after pill KNOWING that conception had taken place and that without your intervention, a fully grown adult human would inhabit this world in 18 years and 9 months? The period is different because no conception has taken place. The doctors have my full sympathy, a very difficult task indeed.

[Greedyfly]

I am just 21 and I had a pregnancy scare a week or so ago - protected/steady boyfriend. On that same day I got offered a job promotion which I have been waiting for for 3 years, we don't earn alot but we would have been happy and survived comfortably. I would have given up that promotion in a heartbeat - I was anxious and a little sad at the thought and a baby is the last thing I had thought of at this time in my life but I would of happily had that baby because thats what I believe. I truly believe that adoption is the alternative (my opinion) give someone else a chance at bringing up the unwanted child. But everyone is different and beliefs differ.

[Doolallygirl]

Greedyfly in my case I didn't even want to think about adoption. My friend was adopted and she found it more difficult later on in her life to feel accepted by people generally because she felt unloved from birth, it didn't matter that her adoptive family saw her as their own flesh and blood. I couldn't also imagine the torment of putting my body through a pregnancy and getting verbally abused and stared at on the street like I would have been at 17 and all to give my baby away. I believe children should not be brought into the world if they are going to be unloved. Children shouldn't be born so that they can move from childrens home to childrens home. They need stability and love. Can you imagine what it would be like to find out after 18 years that your mother was a 17 year old girl who didn't even want you in the first place? Adoption wasn't the right option FOR ME.