The Hillsbrough disaster

[kestrelg]

I was outside the ground at the time leading up to the disaster and what I saw were hundreds maybe thousands of drunken Liverpool supporters hellbent on getting into the ground. I neither want to support or denigrate the police force but I'm sure they hadn't a cat in hell's chance of stopping that mob. Does anyone share that opinion.

[Rollo]

I can't comment on that because I was not there.

But what concerns me is that 96 people died, many of whom were not drunk, and even now nobody has been held accountable for those deaths.

[Booldawg]

Someone at work was discussing this earlier and said the Sun newspaper blamed the police purely to protect their readership (blaming joe public doesnt sell papers) He was of the opinion it was the fault of drunken Liverpool fans.

[123everton]

Try getting off a bus when a big load of school kids (and these were adults) are trying to get on.
You're way off the mark with The Sun newspaper, you might need a tin hat for the sh1t storm that may be heading your way, don't shoot the messenger.
The Sun called the fans "Scum" and said they were robbing corpses, which was wholly untrue.

[jno]

the Sun famously blamed the people of Liverpool, not the police (after a police briefing to that effect).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/200 9/apr/15/hillsborough-disaster-sundaytimes

How on earth did you find time to breathalyse them all, kestrelg?

[probe10]

The police were undermanned and lacked communication and were afraid of the consequences of trying to keep the vast numbers out of the ground ( they thought there might be a catastrophe outside the ground) so they opened the gates to allow them directly onto the terraces and thereby caused a worse disaster inside the ground

[spudqueen]

I was there and I can assure you that I didn't see even tens of drunken Liverpool supporters let alone hundreds. The thing was that there were only 23 turnstiles at that end of the ground (Forests end had 60). When I was trying to get into the ground there was a horrendous crush just to get near the turnstiles (there had been a successful police operation the year before to channel the fans, but this was not in force on this day). People were in real danger of dying before they even got to the turnstiles, but the police were either unaware or didn't care about this awful situation. I even saw them throw back out of the ground (through a gate) people who had climbed over the turnstiles and were showing their (genuine) tickets. If we had been able to get in the ground easily, or even if the match had been delayed then things may have turned out differently.
Btw I was interviewed by the police afterwards (they came to my place of work to take a statement) and I was asked the question if I'd seen anybody drunk, or if anybody had drink on them. I replied that I hadn't seen anyone drunk, and afterwards I had asked around for alcohol because I really needed a drink but no-one had any. The police said that they had asked this question of everyone, but could find no evidence of mass drunkenness (though there will always be a few who turn up drunk to a game) in the majority of fans, nor had any alcohol been found in the ground afterwards.

[R1Geezer]

Well al the anti plod mob will no doubt be here soon but I'll stick my 5 eggs in anyway. 20000+ Scousers without tickets where trying to force there way in. The police reacted as best they could, I don't think they had any chance of controlling the crowd without serious weaponry and that would have had the lefties spitting out their Tibetan Peace Museli, so the deaths could not have been prevented by any action inside or outside the ground. The deaths where caused also by the need at the time to pen fans in because the previous decades demonstrated that football supporters where not sufficienty adult to behave. QED deaths, no doubt none of which where the ticketless scum outside, where the direct result of previous football hoologanism making the authorities act. Nothing similar has happenned in proper sports.

[stokemaveric]

ri geezer.....is that why chief superintendant david duckenfield lied to senior fa officials and said that supporters had broken the gates down,when in fact he had ordered them to be opened?.....a blatant lie to which he has admitted to telling......you are talking out of your a**e..............

[R1Geezer]

I didn't say they didn't lie about it and all those things, the fact is that there was no way to avoid what hapenned, yes they squirmed afterwards with various attempts at cover ups but the fact remains the problems where caused by the barriers on the edge of the pitch and 20000 fans with no tickets, end of.

[R1Geezer]

why do people get so angry when you simplify?

[stokemaveric]

the simplicity of your comments are swerving away from the true facts rigeezer......''ticketless scum'' as you so nicely put it,when in fact analysis of the electronic ticket monitoring system and health and safety executive analysis show that the fans who had ALREADY entered the leppings lane end was well BELOW the capacity of the stand.....you really should not simplify if it distorts the truth...

[R1Geezer]

The stand looked pretty full to me, so full in fact that people where lifting others up a tier. Are you saying that his was not caused by 20000 odd ticketless fans trying to force their way in, I think all sides at least agree that.

[Ice.Maiden]

I was at Hillsbrough with a relative of mine. . All I remember is that people were scaling the wall outside to get in. We only managed it because the police ushered us through quickly and directed us to where we were to go. It seemed total confusion.

[stokemaveric]

ri geezer....the taylor report concluded that the OFFICIAL cause of the disaster was ''FAILURE OF POLICE CONTROL''.......that is a pretty damning verdict to me........

[R1Geezer]

So how should the police have controlled them then? They where overrun by a mob. I think most agree with the verdict you mention but that's like saying the captain of the Titanic could have avoided sinking by not hitting the iceberg.

[paraffin]

kestrelg:

I totally agree that the Police had no chance of stopping the influx of fans trying to get in.

As I remember, and I wasn't there, by all accounts it seems that thousands of Liverpool fans turrned up shortly before scheduled kick-off time desperate to get in before the game started. Does anyone really think there wouldn't have been a riot had the Police tried to stop them getting in?

For whatever reason, gates were apparently thrown open/broken down and a flood of people rushed in and apparently crammed into whichever enclosure they could squeeze into. The rest is tragic history.

I honestly believe that trying to find scapegoats to blame is pointless and would only reopen deep, deep wounds and emotions. It was a tragedy only avoidable with the benefit of hindsight, not so on the day.

[stokemaveric]

ri geezer....the disaster primarily happened as fans,and NOT NECESARILY WITHOUT TICKETS,headed for pens 3 and 4,the overcrowding of these areas caused by lack of police control was the major factor in the disaster....

[paraffin]

stokem:

Do you really believe that Police on duty at any football match are responsible for checking tickets and counting the amount of people allowed through the turnstiles?

I can tell you for definite that that never has been part of policing accountability at football matches. Those things are the responsibility of the home club, its stewards and turnstile operators.

You are simply talking in hindsight. For example, would you expect the Police to check 75,000 people trying to get into Old Trafford? Of course not.

There have been many football tragedies over the years throughout the world and every one I've ever heard about, and there have been many, have involved tens of thousands of people. Some sort of common denominator there, perhaps?

[JimmyCooper]

As someone who watched football in the 70's and 80's I would like to point out a couple of facts:

Scousers were not the "cheeky chappies" that they were portrayed as. Liverpool was the worst city I ever visited, just ask those with the stanley scars.

Scousers for infamous (along with the mancs) for jibbing, i.e., getting into the ground without paying.

Weren't Liverpool fans guilty of trying to storm the ground in Athens for the Champions league final?

Weren't Liverpool fans present at heysel?

It was a terrible tradegy where 96 innocent people died where the fault lay in several areas:

inadequate policing

The FA's ridiculous decision to put Liverpool fans in leppings lane as opposed to the kop at the opposite end

Liverpool fans hell bent on getting into the ground no matter what

[123everton]

Jimmy makes some good points, I can't speak for the violence of the 70s as I was just a boy.
I seem to remember the Liverpool Echo running a story BEFORE the disaster (several weeks) saying that L.F.C had asked the police to change ends as there would be more L'pool fans than Forest (Forest had the Kop end) the police refused saying that the ground's orientation made crowd separation easier.