Common courtesy, political correctness and the return of Carol Thatcher

[sp1814]

Carol Thatcher is back in the news. She was interviewed on BBC One's Andrew Marr Show over the weekend and said she has no regrets for referring to a black tennis player as a 'wolligog' (you know what I mean - don't want AB's censor to get me!).

She states "I used it in a context which wasn't actually appreciated at the time."

To a certain extent, she should be applauded for sticking to her guns, despite the obvious financial costs she has incurred (loss of earnings etc). And as she says, she's had thousands of letters of support, so she's not alone in thinking that her language shouldn't cause offence...

But what she says now raises an interesting question - exactly what circumstances would it be appropriate to refer to a black person as a wolligog?

How and where would this epithet be appropriate?

Would it be okay when there are no black people to hear it?

Is it like a tree falling over in the woods? If no black person is around to hear something offensive, then it's not offensive?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/80068 38.stm

[jake-the-peg]

I seem to remember that the actual context was:

"Well at least he beat that Golliw0g!"

What do you think - personally I think the context makes it worse.

As for applauding people for sticking to their guns - is that something to be applauded?- perhaps we should applaud Hitler for it?

[VHG]

Well whether we like it or not a wolligog DOES exist as an image or character (I remember getting wolligog badges from jam when I was a kid).

So if a person LOOKS like that image or character is it wrong to say so?

She is not saying the black person IS a wolligog, only that he looks like one.

It is like saying Peter Crouch (the lanky footballer) looks like a lampost or something like that.

It could be said that one of the players who played for Everton yesterday, Fellaini, looks a bit like one (and I am not sure he is even black or half caste) so that cannot be racist.

http://www.evertonfc.com/assets/_files/images/ mar_09/efc__1236533503_Fellaini-celebrate-450. jpg

[VHG]

I should point out that my answer above is answering the question "How and where would this epithet be appropriate?".

I am not saying that what Carol said is right or wrong, only when you COULD use that word.

[sp1814]

VHG

I understand where you're coming from...but the weird thing is she was referring to Jo-Wilfried Tsonga...and he doesn't look anything like a golliwog:

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/artic les/2008-01-26/200801261201318695343.html

He just looks like a rather good-looking young man.

I don't get the connection?

[sp1814]

JTP

I personally wouldn't applaud her comments, or the fact that she's sticking to her guns...just wanted to try and see things from her point of view in order to provide a balanced question.

[paraffin]

The word "golliwog" is in any English dictionary and is defined thus:

"A soft doll with a black face, usually made of cloth or rags."

[New Judge]

Your last remark almost leads me to believe you had been listening to James Allen on LBC, jake.

Unfortunately, sp, since the ludicrous MacPherson report into the death of Stephen Lawrencethe the �tree falling over in the woods� approach will no longer work. That preposterous report absurdly decreed (among many other absurdities which took it far beyond its remit) that an incident is declared racist if it is �perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person [my italics].

This means that if an incident such as that you describe occurs, then anybody, whether they heard it first hand or not, or whether they were offended by it then or subsequently (or not at all) can describe it as racist. Then the full panoply of the race relations industry comes into play and, concurrently, common sense is thrown out of the window.

The term used by Ms Thatcher is appropriate when used to describe a child�s toy (though, of course, even this is considered offensive because many consider the toys themselves offensive). I do not consider it appropriate to use it to describe a black person and it is not something that I would do. However, we all have different ways of expressing ourselves. I don�t particularly like being referred to as �white trash�. I have been so described on occasions, but I got over it (quite quickly as it happens) without having to seek succour through the media or the courts.

[BertiWooster]

Let's not p1ss about here .

Her use of the word was meant to be derogatory - she was not using the word in context of a doll that little johnny , cuddles up to at night .

In any event why should anyone pay much attention to her -she is only in the public eye for being the daughter of a Former PM ,and not a good one at that .

[whifffey]

A fundamental question - why do Black people get called horrible things? They are equal in every way and superior in many to all other races, so why do they get called bad things? How did this all start?

[tamborine]

it is racist to call black people 'golliwog' and Thatcher was rude. Had she said he resembles a golliwog-doll that would have been acceptable. Thatcher is as thick as Barbie!

[BertiWooster]

No idea where it started , but unfortunately nowadays a lot of people stereotype all black people as speaking a lingo , listening to Reggae music and running around london , murdering people .

[sp1814]

New Judge

You raise an interesting point there...if someone regards an incident or statement as racist, prior to the MacPherson report, they would not be able to complain about it?

I'm actually quite surprised about that. I mean, I know white people who are vehemently anti-racist and get offended when they hear racist comments.

I wondered why they got so riled, and a mate put it like this:

If I'm in a cab and the driver says something racist, he offends me personally, because he's assuming I'm like him...that I'm 'in that club'

I 'spose people like my mate need to feel that they have recourse to complain as does anyone.

But back to my original question...is there a context in which Ms Thatcher could've reasonably used the word to describe a black person?

I ask this because she states that she said it in a context where it wasn't appreciated.

So in which context would it be appreciated???

[jake-the-peg]

I'm afraid I'm someway out of the LBC transmission area NJ - so I have absolutely no idea who James Allen is or why that would be relevent.

All the rubbish about the word's original meaning is totally disinguous Berti's exactly right it was clearly meant in a derogatory manner

If I called someone on here a donkey or a pig and then tried to wriggle out of it by saying that the word just meant a mammal it could scarcely be more ridiculous

[sp1814]

BertiWooster

Point of order:

Practically no-one under the age of 20 now listens to reggae.

According to my informants, it's now 'grime' and R&B. More Wiley, Dizzie Rascal, Roll Deep than Linval Thompson or Morgan Heritage!

[Quinlad]

Nice attempt, VHG. But you know it's bullsh*t.

She wasn't pointing out that he looks like a golliwog. She was saying he was one (knowing the racial baggage the term carries - she's not that thick) and that it was therefore a good thing that he was defeated.

Not exactly a dispassionate discussion of his physical appearance.

[anotheoldgit]

A fundamental question - why do Black people get called horrible things?

Just like her f----- mother a horriblr pompus t--- who dismisses everybody else as being beneath her.
Put her to the stake, or in this case, in the pot

It would appear that white people also get called horrible things.

It seems it is alright to put certain people to the stake or even in the pot. But woe betide anyone who calls a Black person a Wolligog.

[whifffey]

Mrs T was re-elected twice, and in her day was incredibly popular. Why? Because she brought some national pride to the country. Look at what we have now. A multicultural mess.

[BertiWooster]

sp1814

I stand corrected

I'm losing touch with the streets out there - must be getting old - crikey, and i'm only just leaving my twenties .