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For Keyplus
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But anyone who wants can come on. I've copied your last reply, so I can use it as a reference. Posting this first. keyplus90 Wed 06/05/09 22:41 Lonnie Tue 05/05/09 17:26 keyplus, in answer to your question, 'If I was a Christia, which of the Tinity would I believe in'? I'll tell you, talking now as a committed Christian, it would be one God, as the Christian God is one, who is three. Sounds impossible, but don't forget, there is nothing that this God can't do, so that would make it possible, yes?. Of course God has power to do any thing. But there are few things that are not Godly so God (at least the real one) would never do. Or for example do you believe God can tell lie or burgle you house? After all he has power to do any thing. For your question I would again ask one question, People might have been given baseless information from what they thought was Islam as if we were all so sure and ready to accept what is and what is not baseless, then Islam only talks very clearly about One God and nothing added, Islam has only one Quran and Islam tells us to believe in all the prophets so no favouritism either. However if you have good reasons to believe otherwise then I would love to know but not here please as I do not want to be branded the one who change the subject of the question, so feel free in posting another thread as I would not talk about this matter on this thread and you may take it as it pleases you.
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Lonnie - what really is your question here? as I have already answered your question in that thread. And any one can read that clearly in the question you have posted. Or is it that you just couldn't hold it when someone asked you to prove your point?
Let me ask you again. What reasons do you have to believe that Islam has given people baseless or confusing information?
Let me ask you again. What reasons do you have to believe that Islam has given people baseless or confusing information?
Keyplus, you asked for a seperate thread, so we have it, Now,
'There things that are not Godly',
Who decides what is Godly or nor Godly?, when you read the Bible/Torah, take a look at the Killings, Massacres, ordering of conquering countries,
Was that Godly or not Godly, as they were perpetrated by God.
You talk about 'The Real God', like to explain please, and how you actually know who or what is the real God?.
Have you spoken to him?.
Islam.
yes, there are some excellent Muslims around, I work with some, but why, i'd like to know, have some Imams declared a Holy War on anyone who is not a Muslim, and have told their followers that if these people don't convert, they should be killed?.
I'll tell you a true story that i've posted a few times.
There's a lady (Muslim) train driver who I work with, when she found out I was Jewish, she said 'then we are enemies', like to explain that one please, because she hasn't,
'There things that are not Godly',
Who decides what is Godly or nor Godly?, when you read the Bible/Torah, take a look at the Killings, Massacres, ordering of conquering countries,
Was that Godly or not Godly, as they were perpetrated by God.
You talk about 'The Real God', like to explain please, and how you actually know who or what is the real God?.
Have you spoken to him?.
Islam.
yes, there are some excellent Muslims around, I work with some, but why, i'd like to know, have some Imams declared a Holy War on anyone who is not a Muslim, and have told their followers that if these people don't convert, they should be killed?.
I'll tell you a true story that i've posted a few times.
There's a lady (Muslim) train driver who I work with, when she found out I was Jewish, she said 'then we are enemies', like to explain that one please, because she hasn't,
Bible and Torah, I can't give any verdict on. You should know about Torah yourself and Bible you may ask a Christian. Ask me about Quran where God says to kill anyone and I would try to explain the reason.
Do you tell lie? I hope not. So if as human if few think telling lie is not good then of course God (any God you believe in) would not tell a lie for example. But do you think God could have told a lie as he can do any thing. If (as a human) you can do any thing that simply does not mean you would do it. Then same way if God can do every thing then that does not mean he would do every thing or certain things.
That is what I believe in as real God. Of course I have not seen him. However if you have then lets finish this confusion.
Finally if after hearing that you are Jew that lady said that you are enemy then that stupid woman should have been to clarify the reason too. If she did not then that s the reason I called her stupid. Then again, that might be her own view or perception. Islam does not say any where that if someone is Jew then he is your enemy. I am sure Moses and Jesus were both Jew and still only Muslims right peace be upon them. why they are not enemies? this is what you should ask that women next time you see her.
Enough for tonight and rest tomorrow as it is bed time. Have a nice night and sweet dreams.
Do you tell lie? I hope not. So if as human if few think telling lie is not good then of course God (any God you believe in) would not tell a lie for example. But do you think God could have told a lie as he can do any thing. If (as a human) you can do any thing that simply does not mean you would do it. Then same way if God can do every thing then that does not mean he would do every thing or certain things.
That is what I believe in as real God. Of course I have not seen him. However if you have then lets finish this confusion.
Finally if after hearing that you are Jew that lady said that you are enemy then that stupid woman should have been to clarify the reason too. If she did not then that s the reason I called her stupid. Then again, that might be her own view or perception. Islam does not say any where that if someone is Jew then he is your enemy. I am sure Moses and Jesus were both Jew and still only Muslims right peace be upon them. why they are not enemies? this is what you should ask that women next time you see her.
Enough for tonight and rest tomorrow as it is bed time. Have a nice night and sweet dreams.
Keyplus, you say 'let's finish with this confusion', but you created the confusion on my thread by avoiding Lonnie's original question. You responded to it with a question of your own which Lonnie had the courtesy to reply to before, again, asking you for an answer - and this is what you said.
For your question I would again ask one question.
Now you ask 'what really is your question here?', so I'll tell you.
keyplus, How do you know that it is the Christians who have given people so much wrong and baseless information when it comes to God., and not Islam?.
That's plain enough, Keyplus, so how about you stop going around the houses, leave references to burglars out, and give the good people here a straight answer?
For your question I would again ask one question.
Now you ask 'what really is your question here?', so I'll tell you.
keyplus, How do you know that it is the Christians who have given people so much wrong and baseless information when it comes to God., and not Islam?.
That's plain enough, Keyplus, so how about you stop going around the houses, leave references to burglars out, and give the good people here a straight answer?
Naomi- as far as Lonnie is concerned then he knows and I do too that I have answered his question. However as far as you are concerned then no one in this living world will ever be able to answer your questions. And you know why?
because you will never admit it.
But still I would try again. You question is this,
keyplus, How do you know that it is the Christians who have given people so much wrong and baseless information when it comes to God., and not Islam?
My answer is this, You find me how many Christian section are there, few believe in trinity, few do not, and that is only basic, then there are so many different churches, A king was not happy with the decision so he erected his own church. Known as Church of England. So you find out and let me know which one out of them has the right information. Trust me you would have your name in Guinness book of world records for being the first ever to have done that.
Compared to that Islam may as well has differences but not huge. They all face same way for prayer, they all believe in the same One God, they all believe in one book, in simple words they all believe in the same basics so they might be giving wrong information to the world but if that is the case then it is easy to isolate.
So please take Islamic wrong information and Christian wrong information and let me know what your decision is. And if you will manage to get all the Christian denomination on board, then do let me know. But as a helping opinion, try getting them on one bible first.
because you will never admit it.
But still I would try again. You question is this,
keyplus, How do you know that it is the Christians who have given people so much wrong and baseless information when it comes to God., and not Islam?
My answer is this, You find me how many Christian section are there, few believe in trinity, few do not, and that is only basic, then there are so many different churches, A king was not happy with the decision so he erected his own church. Known as Church of England. So you find out and let me know which one out of them has the right information. Trust me you would have your name in Guinness book of world records for being the first ever to have done that.
Compared to that Islam may as well has differences but not huge. They all face same way for prayer, they all believe in the same One God, they all believe in one book, in simple words they all believe in the same basics so they might be giving wrong information to the world but if that is the case then it is easy to isolate.
So please take Islamic wrong information and Christian wrong information and let me know what your decision is. And if you will manage to get all the Christian denomination on board, then do let me know. But as a helping opinion, try getting them on one bible first.
Keyplus
So the differences between Shia and Sunni are not that great? Is that a fact? No violence between the two?
As far as Christianity is concerned I take it by section you mean different churches of christianity, yes there are differences in terms of worship because as there is no god everyone interprets the bible in different ways. There is no violent acts between christian "faiths"
You will of course now quote Protestant and Catholic in Ireland but this although divided by religious lines is really about politics than relgion as it was the protestants who picked on the Catholics as the Protestant had the support of the English government.
Your point about you tell me who has the right information so valid but it applies to all relgions IF there is a god not everyone can be right so that means some of you are going to suffer big time.
Imagine it you die you enter heaven and thers god reading the Tora and saying "boy did you get it wrong"
Your religion is based on faith but its faith in a human word not a divine one.
So the differences between Shia and Sunni are not that great? Is that a fact? No violence between the two?
As far as Christianity is concerned I take it by section you mean different churches of christianity, yes there are differences in terms of worship because as there is no god everyone interprets the bible in different ways. There is no violent acts between christian "faiths"
You will of course now quote Protestant and Catholic in Ireland but this although divided by religious lines is really about politics than relgion as it was the protestants who picked on the Catholics as the Protestant had the support of the English government.
Your point about you tell me who has the right information so valid but it applies to all relgions IF there is a god not everyone can be right so that means some of you are going to suffer big time.
Imagine it you die you enter heaven and thers god reading the Tora and saying "boy did you get it wrong"
Your religion is based on faith but its faith in a human word not a divine one.
Keyplus, What on earth are you talking about? What will I never admit?
It isn't my question. It's Lonnie's - and if your answer is that all Muslims believe in one God, all believe in the same book, and all face the same way when praying, and therefore Islam is not baseless, then that is not a rational response. It means nothing. All the information Islam has may be baseless, and ALL Muslims may be wrong. Scientologists all believe in the same things, but that doesn't make them right. As for errors, if Islam is giving the wrong information to the world, since all Muslims adhere to the same doctrine, then it stands to reason that, without discrepancy, any errors would be impossible to isolate.
Even though various Christian sects do believe differently, how do you know that one of them isn't right? It might, or it might not, be the Catholic church, or some other denomination - or perhaps Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell, was the last prophet, and the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses have the answer. Or what about the Jews? Maybe they've been right all along. You may believe that isn't so, but you can't possibly say you know because you don't - but you will never admit it.
And please don't keep telling me to trust you. You know the answer to that one!
It isn't my question. It's Lonnie's - and if your answer is that all Muslims believe in one God, all believe in the same book, and all face the same way when praying, and therefore Islam is not baseless, then that is not a rational response. It means nothing. All the information Islam has may be baseless, and ALL Muslims may be wrong. Scientologists all believe in the same things, but that doesn't make them right. As for errors, if Islam is giving the wrong information to the world, since all Muslims adhere to the same doctrine, then it stands to reason that, without discrepancy, any errors would be impossible to isolate.
Even though various Christian sects do believe differently, how do you know that one of them isn't right? It might, or it might not, be the Catholic church, or some other denomination - or perhaps Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell, was the last prophet, and the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses have the answer. Or what about the Jews? Maybe they've been right all along. You may believe that isn't so, but you can't possibly say you know because you don't - but you will never admit it.
And please don't keep telling me to trust you. You know the answer to that one!
keyplus, if you read the post again, I never, anywhere in it, mentioned the Quran, so your twisting words, and if you think i'm possibly lying about anything, please tell me what.
'That is what I believe in as real God.', this is what you put at the end of your beliefs, full marks to you as a believer, but as I said in naomi's thread, have an open mind, Christians and other believers in their religion, believe that the God, or if you like, their version of God, is the right one, but believing in the same God, albeit different verions, doesn't give anyone the right to kill or threaten to kill others, as the particular Imams, (not Quran) because they think all the others are wrong.
Thanks for what you say on the last part of your answer.
naomi. Thanks for repeating my original question, and the reply you put, as always, you word things a little better that I do, however, I have another question for Keyplus,
In todays climate, what would happen to a Muslim, if he/she, stood up, and publicly announced that they no longer believed in God, and that that the Islamic religion is wrong?.
'That is what I believe in as real God.', this is what you put at the end of your beliefs, full marks to you as a believer, but as I said in naomi's thread, have an open mind, Christians and other believers in their religion, believe that the God, or if you like, their version of God, is the right one, but believing in the same God, albeit different verions, doesn't give anyone the right to kill or threaten to kill others, as the particular Imams, (not Quran) because they think all the others are wrong.
Thanks for what you say on the last part of your answer.
naomi. Thanks for repeating my original question, and the reply you put, as always, you word things a little better that I do, however, I have another question for Keyplus,
In todays climate, what would happen to a Muslim, if he/she, stood up, and publicly announced that they no longer believed in God, and that that the Islamic religion is wrong?.
keyplus....Islam is based on indoctrination from birth to death. No free will or thought for islamists just pure robotic brain-storming of young vulnerable minds.
The mainstay of islamists is control of women hence they fear other men casting eyes on their females so keep them covered - now that's real insecurity. Many muslims marry western women but not vice versa - 'cause muslims instill threats of death into their women if they step out of islamism.
Christians prove their love of mankind by allowing their believers to marry out, trusting that one day they will return to christian roots. No ties & No death threats!
The mainstay of islamists is control of women hence they fear other men casting eyes on their females so keep them covered - now that's real insecurity. Many muslims marry western women but not vice versa - 'cause muslims instill threats of death into their women if they step out of islamism.
Christians prove their love of mankind by allowing their believers to marry out, trusting that one day they will return to christian roots. No ties & No death threats!
Lonnie - In today�s world if someone does what you said then few people might end up in trouble through people who do not know about Islam but many, no body will give a damn about. One thing is quite sure that few ending up in trouble would definitely get full coverage on western media. About others, no one would talk about. I have offered this to many and here is another offer again for you and any one else. Come with me to Pakistan, I will pay for all the expenses and show you at least 20 people who left Islam and denounced God or God as they knew and are still living normal and undisturbed life. Of course you would see many in the Western countries who would tell you all about the horror stories they faced once they left Islam. Many of them do that only to get asylum here and are usually very happy to visit homeland and relatives once they have got British passport in the pocket.
Tamborine - I will not go through all what you said but only one thing, please let all those European and American people especially women know who are reverting to Islam in increasing numbers that Islam is not for women. Let�s see if you could save any one.
Tamborine - I will not go through all what you said but only one thing, please let all those European and American people especially women know who are reverting to Islam in increasing numbers that Islam is not for women. Let�s see if you could save any one.
Naomi - Keyplus is selective to be polite.
Keyplus as you well know, or if you didn't.. well you didn't because your not stupid, I made no comparison between of violence as those of Islam and Christianity.
I asked you three questions about Islam and then in a very clumsy way tried to point out that there are christian factions but most are happy to get along and that most differences between christions that escalate into violonce are based on politics rather than any actual religious differences.
You naturaly didn't answer the questions similarly Naomi asks a direct question, its clear and cocise but you chose to ignore it.
But in aswer to your violence theme was Saddam Hussein a Sunni Muslim? He perpetrated, during his entire reign, sustained violence and genocide against Shiite muslims
I would call that differences.
By the way saying that you answered a question, when you plainly didn't, is not an answer.
Keyplus as you well know, or if you didn't.. well you didn't because your not stupid, I made no comparison between of violence as those of Islam and Christianity.
I asked you three questions about Islam and then in a very clumsy way tried to point out that there are christian factions but most are happy to get along and that most differences between christions that escalate into violonce are based on politics rather than any actual religious differences.
You naturaly didn't answer the questions similarly Naomi asks a direct question, its clear and cocise but you chose to ignore it.
But in aswer to your violence theme was Saddam Hussein a Sunni Muslim? He perpetrated, during his entire reign, sustained violence and genocide against Shiite muslims
I would call that differences.
By the way saying that you answered a question, when you plainly didn't, is not an answer.
Thanks for all your answers, (I couldn't get on last night)
Keyplus, I admire you, because your still here after all the flak you take, mind you, most of it is self inflicted because you do try to twist words, which is nigh on impossible on a site like this, and are too selective on answering certain questions, also, I think you should be more open minded about other religions, but never mind, its all very interesting nevertheless.
Keyplus, I admire you, because your still here after all the flak you take, mind you, most of it is self inflicted because you do try to twist words, which is nigh on impossible on a site like this, and are too selective on answering certain questions, also, I think you should be more open minded about other religions, but never mind, its all very interesting nevertheless.
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