Travel2 mins ago
Should the burka now be banned?
77 Answers
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-120900 6/Jewellers-robbery-Oxfordshire-burka-clad-man --150-000-designer-watches-stolen.html
Yet another crime committed under the disguise of the burka.
How long must we wait before they either ban the wearing of burkas, or at least demand that they show their faces before entering certain establishments?
Yet another crime committed under the disguise of the burka.
How long must we wait before they either ban the wearing of burkas, or at least demand that they show their faces before entering certain establishments?
Answers
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naomi24,
I'm not sure whether you airport analogy is correct. In an airport, security measures dictate that you must be identified at passport control and at chech in.
When I flew to Spain last month, I saw a woman in a burkha who had to identify herself, and was led to a private area where I assume, a female check on officer, ID'ed her.
In the current climate, airport authorities simply don't waive security policies to placate Muslim sensibilties. That would be madness.
They put in procedures so that a) we can fly safely and b) they can ensure they're not excluding a section of the community from travel (with the global economic downturn, they need evert penny they can lay their hands on!)
I'm not sure whether you airport analogy is correct. In an airport, security measures dictate that you must be identified at passport control and at chech in.
When I flew to Spain last month, I saw a woman in a burkha who had to identify herself, and was led to a private area where I assume, a female check on officer, ID'ed her.
In the current climate, airport authorities simply don't waive security policies to placate Muslim sensibilties. That would be madness.
They put in procedures so that a) we can fly safely and b) they can ensure they're not excluding a section of the community from travel (with the global economic downturn, they need evert penny they can lay their hands on!)
Ban, ban, ban.
I understand that some people make a distinction between burkhas and, for example, underpants being used as masks by criminals.
Underpants have another common usgae. The burkha is designed to obscure the face. Of course, if we're going with that rationale we should ban the sale of wigs - given that their sole function is to disguise the colour or style of someone's hair (a key identifier).
A wig has no other usage other than disguise or vanity. Same with hair dye for that matter - (bought mainly by women to improve their appearance and impress menfolk. Appalling double standards.)
Remember - if in doubt, ban it. What we need in this country are more laws.
I understand that some people make a distinction between burkhas and, for example, underpants being used as masks by criminals.
Underpants have another common usgae. The burkha is designed to obscure the face. Of course, if we're going with that rationale we should ban the sale of wigs - given that their sole function is to disguise the colour or style of someone's hair (a key identifier).
A wig has no other usage other than disguise or vanity. Same with hair dye for that matter - (bought mainly by women to improve their appearance and impress menfolk. Appalling double standards.)
Remember - if in doubt, ban it. What we need in this country are more laws.
can you address my concerns that those here who support the dubious rights of women to wear burkas are, in fact, displaying appallingly misguided double standards. You would be among the first to call for fair play in every other area of life, and yet you openly support an antiquated system that obliges women to dress in a way deemed fit for them by men.
This is ludicrous. You might as well say that mini skirts and low cut tops should be banned as they sexualise women and have no place in the modern world where every woman should be treated equally and not how shapely their breasts or legs are.
If a woman is forced into wearing a Burka then of course that is wrong - just as a woman shouldn't be forced into anything. But if she chooses to wear one, then I see no problem with it.
This is ludicrous. You might as well say that mini skirts and low cut tops should be banned as they sexualise women and have no place in the modern world where every woman should be treated equally and not how shapely their breasts or legs are.
If a woman is forced into wearing a Burka then of course that is wrong - just as a woman shouldn't be forced into anything. But if she chooses to wear one, then I see no problem with it.
SP, I fly fairly frequently, and I have seen people in burkas being waved through both inwards and outwards. Wearing a mask, I wouldn't get two yards through the front doors of an airport - let alone through security and onto a plane.
Vic, many are forced, and if anything is ludicrous, it's people who, in an effort to be seen to be taking a liberal stance, ending up unwittingly encouraging it - and defending it.
Vic, many are forced, and if anything is ludicrous, it's people who, in an effort to be seen to be taking a liberal stance, ending up unwittingly encouraging it - and defending it.
Many wives are forced to wear short skirts and plenty of makeup - why is this?
Why do women go out dressed up to the nines. Why do they spend thousands on makeup, haircuts etc etc.
As a modern man, I think all of these things are a sign of women's repression in modern England and I ask all likeminded Abers to go out and firebomb boots and your local hairdressers now!
Why do women go out dressed up to the nines. Why do they spend thousands on makeup, haircuts etc etc.
As a modern man, I think all of these things are a sign of women's repression in modern England and I ask all likeminded Abers to go out and firebomb boots and your local hairdressers now!
naomi24
From 'Yahoo Answers':
The head cover will be tested. Though if the test results alarm, you will have to go through additional screening. At this point you will be offered a private screening, or you can request for one. At this point, you and 2 other female officers will go to a private screening room where you will be hand wanded and pat down. You will have to remove your head wear so the officers can inspect it as well as inspect your hair. Once all this is cleared, you can put the burkha back on and will now be allowed to access the gate area.
Are you saying that the airports you use are exempt from what I presume is international security measures, designed to keep us all safe?
Perhaps what you're thinking of is women wearing burkhas in airport terminals, which is different from the procedures followed when you go through the security gates?
From 'Yahoo Answers':
The head cover will be tested. Though if the test results alarm, you will have to go through additional screening. At this point you will be offered a private screening, or you can request for one. At this point, you and 2 other female officers will go to a private screening room where you will be hand wanded and pat down. You will have to remove your head wear so the officers can inspect it as well as inspect your hair. Once all this is cleared, you can put the burkha back on and will now be allowed to access the gate area.
Are you saying that the airports you use are exempt from what I presume is international security measures, designed to keep us all safe?
Perhaps what you're thinking of is women wearing burkhas in airport terminals, which is different from the procedures followed when you go through the security gates?
Probably slightly more accurate than Yahoo answers is the words of Andy Burnham:
Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the procedures are for the identification of an entrant at passport control who is wearing a burka or other face-covering apparel. [19047]
Andy Burnham [holding answer 18 October 2005]: In accordance with the Immigration Act 1971 all persons arriving in the United Kingdom must produce a valid passport or other document satisfactorily establishing their nationality and identity and immigration officers are required to verify that they are the rightful holders of the document presented.
Where there are cultural or sensitive reasons such as facial disfigurement which would cause difficulties for the individual in showing their face at the immigration control, an immigration officer will make arrangements for that person to be taken to a separate room where, particularly in the case of Muslim women, a female officer will ask them to lift their veil. People are usually content to do this but there are powers to refuse entry to persons who cannot be satisfactorily identified.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co .uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo051019/text/51019w0 9.htm
Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the procedures are for the identification of an entrant at passport control who is wearing a burka or other face-covering apparel. [19047]
Andy Burnham [holding answer 18 October 2005]: In accordance with the Immigration Act 1971 all persons arriving in the United Kingdom must produce a valid passport or other document satisfactorily establishing their nationality and identity and immigration officers are required to verify that they are the rightful holders of the document presented.
Where there are cultural or sensitive reasons such as facial disfigurement which would cause difficulties for the individual in showing their face at the immigration control, an immigration officer will make arrangements for that person to be taken to a separate room where, particularly in the case of Muslim women, a female officer will ask them to lift their veil. People are usually content to do this but there are powers to refuse entry to persons who cannot be satisfactorily identified.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co .uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo051019/text/51019w0 9.htm
No, I'm not saying that, SP. I'm saying what I've seen.
Vic, why is this? It isn't because of an archaic religion that deems women to be less than men. How many are forced to wear it is irrelevant. Many are - and If that's what you, as a self confessed modern man, want to defend, it makes no sense to me, but it's your choice.
I meant to answer Doc Spock when he said if he holds a door open for these people to pass through he doesn't get a word of thanks. That's because they aren't allowed to speak to men who are unrelated to them, Doc.
Vic, why is this? It isn't because of an archaic religion that deems women to be less than men. How many are forced to wear it is irrelevant. Many are - and If that's what you, as a self confessed modern man, want to defend, it makes no sense to me, but it's your choice.
I meant to answer Doc Spock when he said if he holds a door open for these people to pass through he doesn't get a word of thanks. That's because they aren't allowed to speak to men who are unrelated to them, Doc.
BertiWooster - the same type of women that Naomi mentioned - my perception / experience. No statistics to back this up I am afraid.
Though of course, you could mention ladies of the night - ooh - there's another thought - lets ban sex. Again it can degrade women and there are definitely plenty of women who are forced into it against their will.
Though of course, you could mention ladies of the night - ooh - there's another thought - lets ban sex. Again it can degrade women and there are definitely plenty of women who are forced into it against their will.
naomi How many are forced to wear it is irrelevant.
So you want to ban something without actually knowing how many people actually wish to wear it and how many are forced to wear it?
And you think that is okay?
How many women have you talked to / seen interviewed in this country (as that is the only place we can talk about legislation) who have said that they are forced to wear one against their will. I can't remember seeing many myself - but I have seen plenty of interviews with women who want to wear one and have even been to court to protect their right to wear it http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1484738/Girl-w ins-battle-to-wear-Muslim-dress-to-school.html
So you want to ban something without actually knowing how many people actually wish to wear it and how many are forced to wear it?
And you think that is okay?
How many women have you talked to / seen interviewed in this country (as that is the only place we can talk about legislation) who have said that they are forced to wear one against their will. I can't remember seeing many myself - but I have seen plenty of interviews with women who want to wear one and have even been to court to protect their right to wear it http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1484738/Girl-w ins-battle-to-wear-Muslim-dress-to-school.html
naomi - I have done a fair bit of research (and included pertinent links to back up my argument) - it seems that you haven't as you can't answer a simple question on this 'so called' injustice (ie how many or what percentage are forced into it). And yes, unless you can show that this is a major problem it is 'so called'.
Forced arranged marriages are a problem in some cultures - should we also ban all marriages as some people are forced into it?
Forced arranged marriages are a problem in some cultures - should we also ban all marriages as some people are forced into it?
Vic, two articles from two educated Muslim women. Since I think you'll agree that they are more knowledgeable in the ways of Islam than either you or I, perhaps this will help you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentat ors/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-w earing-the-burqa-is-neither-islamic-nor-social ly-acceptable-1743375.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195 052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-ban ned-streets.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentat ors/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-w earing-the-burqa-is-neither-islamic-nor-social ly-acceptable-1743375.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195 052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-ban ned-streets.html
From Saria Khan's article: Every time the burkha is debated, Muslim fundamentalists bring out all these women who say: 'It's my choice to wear this.'
Perhaps so - but what pressures have been brought to bear on them? The reality, surely, is that a lot of women are not free to choose.
Surely? Using that word in a sentence usually means that you don't actually know but are pandering to your prejudices.
Again, from both articles, I see neither facts nor answers - just opinions.
There are already laws in place protecting people from abuse - and if they are violated then the full force of the law should be felt.
Do you seriously think that the Muslim men who are controlling women will suddenly change if a burka is made illegal? Will the women who are being controlled change and suddenly realise that they have rights (which they don't know that they have currently)
But there are plenty of women who do want to wear the burka - what about them?
What are you actually trying to achieve by banning the burka?
Perhaps so - but what pressures have been brought to bear on them? The reality, surely, is that a lot of women are not free to choose.
Surely? Using that word in a sentence usually means that you don't actually know but are pandering to your prejudices.
Again, from both articles, I see neither facts nor answers - just opinions.
There are already laws in place protecting people from abuse - and if they are violated then the full force of the law should be felt.
Do you seriously think that the Muslim men who are controlling women will suddenly change if a burka is made illegal? Will the women who are being controlled change and suddenly realise that they have rights (which they don't know that they have currently)
But there are plenty of women who do want to wear the burka - what about them?
What are you actually trying to achieve by banning the burka?
The crime thing is a complete red herring.
The debate is about whether they should be banned because they are a tool of oppression which has no place in a civilised society like foot binding, female circumcision and chastity belts.
Personally I'm not sure. On the one hand I think they're despicable things which belong in the middle ages. On the other, if people want to wear them (and some of them must do) should we force them not to?
The debate is about whether they should be banned because they are a tool of oppression which has no place in a civilised society like foot binding, female circumcision and chastity belts.
Personally I'm not sure. On the one hand I think they're despicable things which belong in the middle ages. On the other, if people want to wear them (and some of them must do) should we force them not to?
Vic, as one of the articles says, there are no statistics, so it's pointless demanding statistics. Nevertheless, the articles are written by people who, unlike you or me, do have an inside knowledge of Islam, and are therefore qualified to offer an informed opinion. I happen to agree with them, but since you appear to think you know something they don't, and choose to ignore what they've said, then I have nothing further to add to this discussion.
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