Should the burka now be banned?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-120900 6/Jewellers-robbery-Oxfordshire-burka-clad-man --150-000-designer-watches-stolen.html

Yet another crime committed under the disguise of the burka.

How long must we wait before they either ban the wearing of burkas, or at least demand that they show their faces before entering certain establishments?

[Oneeyedvic]

Vic, as one of the articles says, there are no statistics, so it's pointless demanding statistics

You're right - no point in demanding facts, figures and statistics - much easier to rely on good old fashion prejudice.

Both people admit to hating the burka and neither of them have ever worn it or been brought up with it - it's like asking a Catholic if there should be a female Pope (and since there can't be, should Catholics also be banned as their religion is sexist?)

[ludwig]

"But there are plenty of women who do want to wear the burka - what about them? "

Do you have any facts, figures and statisics to support this Vic?. If so there's no need to ask Naomi for research.
Just take away the number of women who want to wear it from the total number of women, and that will give you number who don't.

[Oneeyedvic]

I have pointed out that there are women who have gone to court over their right to wear a burka (link on previous page). At the time of that case there were a multitude of other women who were interviewed and say that they want to wear it. In the articles that Naomi gave links to, the Apprentice Woman even says herself that there are plenty of women who come forward and say that it is their right - but she thinks that they may be pressure into it.

You are right in that I don't know exactly how many do or do not want to wear one. But that is why I am not calling for action to be taken - because as far as I am aware, in this country we legislate on facts, not on prejudices.

[naomi24]

The fact is Vic, Islam subjugates women - and if you doubt that, have a look at the last half a dozen posts here:

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Cul ture/Religion-and-Spirituality/Question800563- 2.html

[Oneeyedvic]

Ah yes, lets take one person on an anonymous internet site and say that his views represent the whole of Islam.

How can you possibly make an assertion like: The fact is Vic, Islam subjugates women when you even provide links to women who are both Muslims who I doubt would see themselves as subjugated.

Maybe you can also explain how if Islam did subjugated women, can you explain how Benazir Bhutto got to be the prime minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

[naomi24]

I didn't say his views represent the whole of Islam - no one's views represent the whole of Islam - not even yours, Vic. Nevertheless, he, unlike you, is Muslim, and as unsavoury as it may be, that is his view.

Yes, of course there are educated women from good families within Islam, but there are also many millions of uneducated, subservient women who are taught their place from childhood - and who remain in that place for the rest of their lives.

We're never going to agree on this, Vic, so it's pointless to continue. See you on another thread.

Bye for now.

[Oneeyedvic]

Cheers naomi see you on another thread.

Just one thing though - try not to state 'facts' when they obviously are not facts (such as: fact - Islam subjugates women).

By saying something which obviously isn't true and cannot be backed up it demeans your entire argument.

I would happily concede that a lot of Muslim women are treated in a subservient way - but that is also true for pretty much that entire region of Asia - it has nothing to do with the Muslim religion

[naomi24]

Vic, I had to come back on this. This isn't about other areas of Asia, but you're wrong because it has everything to do with the religion, and it is the religion that subjugates women. That is a fact. The Koran, according to believers, is the literal the word of Allah, and that is what they live by. The Koran expressly instructs men to beat their disobedient wives, and says that one male witness is equal to two female witnesses. Additionally, men inherit twice as much as women, women who stray must be confined to the house until they die, men may marry more than one wife, women must lower their gaze and hide their beauty, a man has domination over his wives' bodies as he does his land, men are superior to women, and good women are obedient. I could go on, but I won't. Wander the threads in R&S if you want to know more. It's been debated ad infinitum there.

Bye.

[Oneeyedvic]

Hardly surprised that you don't want to continue a discussion - it is very difficult to say that all women in a Muslim world are treated as second class citizens when you can hardly refute the prime minister of the second largest Islamic country was a woman. You also kindly provided your own links to Muslim women - and despite Saira not being Alan Sugar's choice, I doubt that she would say it was because she was subjugated as she was a Muslim.

You can keep saying "It's a fact" and if you repeat it often enough, I am sure that others will believe it (seems that you already do) but unfortunately real life does not actually back up your 'fact'

[naomi24]

Vic, I didn't say that ALL women in the Muslim world are treated as second class citizens. I'm simply saying that very many are - and that is a fact that is demonstrated in real life, and which you, yourself have now acknowledged.

[sp1814]

Are all women in the UK treated equally to men?

Are women paid the same as men?

In an economic downturn is it the part time women who are laid off first?

How many of the top 100 FTSE companies have women as the Chair (I'll tell you - it's 3%).

To spotlight Islam's treatment of women is a little unfair. I'm not saying that I don't feel uncomfortable with some aspects of their culture, but we're not exactly smelling of roses ourselves.

[naomi24]

SP, that is true, but it's irrelevant to this discussion, and it doesn't negate the inequalities within Islam.

Since the subject of the question is the burka, I fail to see why you think it is unfair to spotlight Islam's treatment of women, when it's Muslim women who wear it.

[Oneeyedvic]

naomi - maybe you would like to change your original statent that read:

"The fact is Vic, Islam subjugates women"

to

"The fact is Vic, Islam subjugates some women"

And then we can agree. But of course, if you look at other Eastern cultures (lets take India, China and any other country in that area you care to mention), you will find that women in those country are also treated far worse than men. But these are not Islamic countries. So maybe, just maybe, as I mentioend earlier, it is not the religion but the culture in those areas.

And as SP has pointed out, even if you come to the West, do the same exercise in America, France or Germany. What percentage of the major companies have women in high jobs? And these are predominently Christian countries.

How about Judaism? How does Israel fair in all of this? Not well either.

[naomi24]

No, Vic. I do not want to change my original statement. Islam does subjugate women. Some of those who are educated, or who come from educated or wealthy families, or are married to educated men, will not necessarily experience that - although some will - (I'm thinking now of Saudi Arabia where women aren't allowed to drive a car, or acquire a passport or travel abroad without a man's permission, or appear before a judge without a male representative, or eat in a restaurant without a male guardian being present) - but for millions of Muslim women, subservience is a way of life, and that you've already conceded, so I really don't know what your argument is now.

As I've already said, practices in other areas of the world aren't the issue here - and they don't negate the inequalities within Islam.

[Oneeyedvic]

Hang on - are you saying that Benazir Bhutto could not drive, go in front of a judge or get a passport without a mans permission? What about Saira Khan?

Presumably not - do you see then, that this is not under Islam but under Saudi Arabian Law. Every Islamic country have their own laws which may be based on Sharia Law but is their own interpretation of it.


You keep going back to Islam and I am curious why? You seem to accept that inequality exists in pretty much every nation and religion - but for some reason you will only consider that Islam subjugates women - and when it is pointed out that every other country (be they religious or secular) do similar you keep saying that's not the point.

I truly do not understand where you are coming from.

Seems to me that men of all nations subjugate women - not religions.

[naomi24]

AH, now you're getting warm! All you need to do is work with that final thought. Ask youself who founded the major religions, who wrote the laws, and who heads those religions even today? Yep. you got it.

[N0BB0]

MissNorway
Wed 26/08/09
12:58
Some people are so ugly they need to cover up.

I was told I would look better in a burka.: (





Wrong noway: you would better in concrete shoes suspended over a deep river