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Patriotism
24 Answers
After a couple of questions / answers below:
What do you consider to be patriotic / unpatriotic?
Would you consider the German people in 1939 supporting their troops to be patriotic?
If you were a soldier in the army and see the war in Iraq as illegal, do you think that you should stop following orders (as per Nuremberg trials) or should you continue to follow commands?
Can you be patriotic and not want a monarchy?
What do you consider to be patriotic / unpatriotic?
Would you consider the German people in 1939 supporting their troops to be patriotic?
If you were a soldier in the army and see the war in Iraq as illegal, do you think that you should stop following orders (as per Nuremberg trials) or should you continue to follow commands?
Can you be patriotic and not want a monarchy?
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The German people were very patriotic in the 30s, and supported their troops because they were at that early stage, re-occupying land that was Germany's before the Great War.
For right or wrong it is a soldiers duty to carry out orders, If they only carried out orders that they themselves approved of, we would have an indisciplined rag tag mob.
It is the political leaders and the top brass themselves, that must carry the burden of their crimes against humanity.
Patriotism.
Our hearts where they rocked our cradle,
Our love where we spent our toil,
And our faith, and our hope, and our honour,
We pledge to our native soil.
God gave all men all earth to love,
But since our hearts are small,
Ordained for each one spot should prove
Beloved over all.
~Rudyard Kipling
For right or wrong it is a soldiers duty to carry out orders, If they only carried out orders that they themselves approved of, we would have an indisciplined rag tag mob.
It is the political leaders and the top brass themselves, that must carry the burden of their crimes against humanity.
Patriotism.
Our hearts where they rocked our cradle,
Our love where we spent our toil,
And our faith, and our hope, and our honour,
We pledge to our native soil.
God gave all men all earth to love,
But since our hearts are small,
Ordained for each one spot should prove
Beloved over all.
~Rudyard Kipling
Patriotism is wanting your country to be the best, respected. It is favouring your own people with resources and wanting our sports teams to do well. Unpatritism is surrenderring control of your country on some ideological whim and slating everything it does. Always digging up a bad thing in response to any question always deriding our sports/forces teams as lucky if they win and incompetatant if they lose, spot anyone Vic?
Soldiers follwo orders you can't have a debate at every level, if the war is illigal then that's down to the politicians.
The Germans in 1939 were patriotic and mostly unaware of where it would lead.
You do not have to be a monarchy to be patriotic a republic can be just as patriotic, see the USA for example.
Soldiers follwo orders you can't have a debate at every level, if the war is illigal then that's down to the politicians.
The Germans in 1939 were patriotic and mostly unaware of where it would lead.
You do not have to be a monarchy to be patriotic a republic can be just as patriotic, see the USA for example.
common vic I'm dying to see the leap of illogic you are going to attach to this, you know...... well if you yada yada ... then shouldn't you yada yada yada,,, probably involving booting out the Queen and adopting the red flag/anthem as the national icons, no doubt tearing down Nelson and putting a statue of Nelson Mandella on top etc......., rename Waterloo station, etc etc.......
Re-Nuremberg that may have been their excuse but no ordinary rank and file soldiers were charged at Nuremberg these were the leaders who gave the orders in violation of the Geneva convention. However if they were on trial now no doubt they would be charged at worst with manslaughter .
Re: the monarchy . patriotism is love for your country and its interests, comes from the Greek 'patris ' native land , nothing to do with its leaders, be they monarchs, presidents or dictators, although many may think so.
Re: the monarchy . patriotism is love for your country and its interests, comes from the Greek 'patris ' native land , nothing to do with its leaders, be they monarchs, presidents or dictators, although many may think so.
Well if the cap fits vic! Not just you but there is a whole bunch on here that cannot stand to here anything good about this nation and always go off and find some reason why it was somehow artificial or invalid or failing thatm they dig up an example of something bad.
On the subject of the British Monarchy, if I'm being objective, yes I think you can be anti Monarchy and patiotic, I am personally pro monarchy, all the arguments have been done to death so I'm not goig to dig them up but I do accept that the republicans can also be patriotic.
On the subject of the British Monarchy, if I'm being objective, yes I think you can be anti Monarchy and patiotic, I am personally pro monarchy, all the arguments have been done to death so I'm not goig to dig them up but I do accept that the republicans can also be patriotic.
-- answer removed --
<What do you consider to be patriotic / unpatriotic ?>
I suppose a focus on the external to the detriment of the internal, when dealing with the 'big issues'...........
<Would you consider the German people in 1939 supporting their troops to be patriotic?>
Yes. Their leaders, well-versed in rhetoric and rousing speech-giving, misled much of the nation........
<If you were a soldier in the army and see the war in Iraq as illegal, do you think that you should stop following orders (as per Nuremberg trials) or should you continue to follow commands?>
Difficult, very difficult. Your obligations, as per your signing on, instruct you to follow all orders. Your (hopefully) own moral compass dictates the bounds of acceptibility.....when these cross-over or clash you can expect a court-martial at the very least if you cease to follow commands.
<Can you be patriotic and not want a monarchy? >
I'm am patriotic and want a monarchy............I can suppose that you could be patriotic without wanting a monarchy but I'm not sure how that is displayed.
I suppose a focus on the external to the detriment of the internal, when dealing with the 'big issues'...........
<Would you consider the German people in 1939 supporting their troops to be patriotic?>
Yes. Their leaders, well-versed in rhetoric and rousing speech-giving, misled much of the nation........
<If you were a soldier in the army and see the war in Iraq as illegal, do you think that you should stop following orders (as per Nuremberg trials) or should you continue to follow commands?>
Difficult, very difficult. Your obligations, as per your signing on, instruct you to follow all orders. Your (hopefully) own moral compass dictates the bounds of acceptibility.....when these cross-over or clash you can expect a court-martial at the very least if you cease to follow commands.
<Can you be patriotic and not want a monarchy? >
I'm am patriotic and want a monarchy............I can suppose that you could be patriotic without wanting a monarchy but I'm not sure how that is displayed.
-- answer removed --
"common vic I'm dying to see the leap of illogic you are going to attach to this" - R1, I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this. I have been called unpatriotic on this site and resent that. Therefore I am curious as to what people think the term means.
The German people in 1939 were patriotic - was that a good thing? Were the majority of German's Nazis - no. But they did blindly (and patriotically) follow their leaders.
Apparently, if you question leaders' decisions, you will be termed unpatriotic. Presumably, these would be the same people, had they been living in Germany in 1942, would also decry their neighbours for trying to protect Jews as 'unpatriotic'.
It amuses me that you think that 'we' don't like this nation. You are the one who keeps going on about what is wrong with this country, from the government through to the 'yoof' culture.
You will find that the majority of 'us' seem to have to keep on defending this country.
Incidentally, I was late to a do on Saturday night as I was supporting the English team in their defence of the Calcutta Cup. I would say that it was a terrible game but may get labelled unpatriotic again.
The German people in 1939 were patriotic - was that a good thing? Were the majority of German's Nazis - no. But they did blindly (and patriotically) follow their leaders.
Apparently, if you question leaders' decisions, you will be termed unpatriotic. Presumably, these would be the same people, had they been living in Germany in 1942, would also decry their neighbours for trying to protect Jews as 'unpatriotic'.
It amuses me that you think that 'we' don't like this nation. You are the one who keeps going on about what is wrong with this country, from the government through to the 'yoof' culture.
You will find that the majority of 'us' seem to have to keep on defending this country.
Incidentally, I was late to a do on Saturday night as I was supporting the English team in their defence of the Calcutta Cup. I would say that it was a terrible game but may get labelled unpatriotic again.
Re: Servicemen in Iraq.
All servicemen, regardless of rank and status, have the untouchable right to refuse any order that, by the laws of this land, are deemed illegal. The Iraq war was, unfortunately, deemed legal by the government and legal system. Therefore no soldier was able to refuse to serve in that enviroment. If they had refused then they fall foul of Military law, and the associated punishments. If they did not want to serve in that enviroment then they can leave the military.
As military personnel we cannot pick and choose what conflicts we fight in.
Re: Patriotism. In my eyes, it's about improving and defending the way of life that all British citizens (whether they be the highest monarch or the poorest immigrant from Zanzibar) live in. It's about respecting our history (some good, some bad, all important) and learning from the mistakes of the past. It's about standing up for those incapable of standing up for themselves. But most importnantly it's saying "I'm British" with pride and dignity.
It's not about facism, nor is it about trying to destroy the nation through subversive means. Open debate should be welcomed, closed minds should not.
All servicemen, regardless of rank and status, have the untouchable right to refuse any order that, by the laws of this land, are deemed illegal. The Iraq war was, unfortunately, deemed legal by the government and legal system. Therefore no soldier was able to refuse to serve in that enviroment. If they had refused then they fall foul of Military law, and the associated punishments. If they did not want to serve in that enviroment then they can leave the military.
As military personnel we cannot pick and choose what conflicts we fight in.
Re: Patriotism. In my eyes, it's about improving and defending the way of life that all British citizens (whether they be the highest monarch or the poorest immigrant from Zanzibar) live in. It's about respecting our history (some good, some bad, all important) and learning from the mistakes of the past. It's about standing up for those incapable of standing up for themselves. But most importnantly it's saying "I'm British" with pride and dignity.
It's not about facism, nor is it about trying to destroy the nation through subversive means. Open debate should be welcomed, closed minds should not.
-- answer removed --
Patriotism
"The last refuge of the Scoundrel"
Dr Johnson
The heart of Patriotism is the sentiment "My country right or wrong"
This is folly as your example clearly highlights
You also have to ask "What is this country of which we should be proud?"
It can hardly be landscape - despite all the sentimental tripe about how pretty it is
If it is anything a country is it's people
The same people mostly so despised as chavs, scroungers and waisters by so many "patriots".
I can understand someone being proud to be British if they made their way here and earned citizenship.
Personally I am as proud of my country as I am of the colour of my eyes - I was born with both and they suit me OK, but don't ask me to kill people for them
"The last refuge of the Scoundrel"
Dr Johnson
The heart of Patriotism is the sentiment "My country right or wrong"
This is folly as your example clearly highlights
You also have to ask "What is this country of which we should be proud?"
It can hardly be landscape - despite all the sentimental tripe about how pretty it is
If it is anything a country is it's people
The same people mostly so despised as chavs, scroungers and waisters by so many "patriots".
I can understand someone being proud to be British if they made their way here and earned citizenship.
Personally I am as proud of my country as I am of the colour of my eyes - I was born with both and they suit me OK, but don't ask me to kill people for them
Do you expect to be protected Jake? Your way of life? your freedom? You won't do it, do you expect somone else to? Are you some sort of anarchist who hopes that human nature can be surpressed in favour of a lovely cozy world were there are no rules, no bad people because everyone is happy with thier lot?
-- answer removed --
/// then went back to be <<chavs, scroungers and waisters>> for 1919 onwards///
What a well thought out piece of logic from that mastermind Zeuhl
/// chavs, scroungers and waisters>> for 1919 onwards ///
I'll remember that next Remembrance Sunday, that there are individuals breathing the same air that we all breath, classing those brave soldiers of WW1 Chavs, scroungers, and wasters.
But note how he spelt wasters, we will put it down to his intelligence or lack of it shall we?
What a well thought out piece of logic from that mastermind Zeuhl
/// chavs, scroungers and waisters>> for 1919 onwards ///
I'll remember that next Remembrance Sunday, that there are individuals breathing the same air that we all breath, classing those brave soldiers of WW1 Chavs, scroungers, and wasters.
But note how he spelt wasters, we will put it down to his intelligence or lack of it shall we?
-- answer removed --
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