Waterboarding

[flip_flop]

If we assume, for the sake of the argument, that George Bush is telling the truth in his memoirs where he says the use of waterboarding prevented a number of terrorist attacks, including attacks on Canary Wharf and Heathrow, then the ends justify the means, don't they?

[NOX]

No the ends do NOT justify the means- if you torture people you become as bad if not worse than they are whoever they are- so you lose your integrity and if you can't be relied upon to make good decisions then no wonder that person is opposing you in the first place- it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[joggerjayne]

I wish "waterboarding" didn't sound so much like a water sport activity.

[anotheoldgit]

I just cannot understand why we have to self flagellate ourselves all the time, with talk about if we do the same as the enemy, then we are no better than them, who cares?

Why, back in the middle ages the English long-bow archer would not at first use the cross-bow, they said it was more accurate than the long-bow, so therefore it was a little unfair to use it, against one's enemy.

Anything one can bring to quicken the end of hostilities the better and if that means using a mild form of torture so as to gain valuable information, then so be it.

War is a dirty game, and in some cases cannot be played to a set of rules, why should we be the good guys all the time, it is them who get their faces pushed into the sand.

[andy-hughes]

I fully appreciate that your stance is in line with your stated approach to conflict AOG - and equally i am sure you will appreciate that mine is to disagree utterly.

I do concur that an end to hostilities is desireable, and in fact essential, but to suggest that it be by any means possible is surely not what we can accept as a civilised democracy.

If that were the case, then we can simply subject the nations of Afghanistan, and more pertinently in terms of terrorist headquarters, we need to deal with Yemen and Pakistan - then a few nuclear missiles will sort the whole thing out and - to use the reptillian Bush's downhome phraseology which I find so chilling - we can 'get the job done'.

Oh Lord, i hope not.

[modeller]

All this emotional talk about medieval reptilian levels of torture and the London Dungeon .
Is that the only way you can further your beliefs ? You know full well that not a single victim or informer has claimed that has happened. So why trot it out it does not futher your cause .
The worst that has been claimed is the use of waterboarding. Of course torture of any kind is abhorrent but the question is, are there circumstances where it is justified and gave examples where it is. You may not, but I would do anything to save the lives of the innocent .
You remind me of the conscientious objecters in the last war who allowed atrocities to happen because they personally couldn't fire in anger.

[joggerjayne]

What would have happened if a plane full of holiday makers had been hijacked, and flown into Canary Wharf.

Would anyone say ... this is acceptable loss, because the only way to avoid it would have been to mistreat prisoners?

[naomi24]

//And again I reiterate, we cannot claim to be a modern, civilised, cultured, reasonable, rational decent people when we use the ancient, backward, barbaric, medieval practice of torture.//

Haaaaaa! So says the man who supports the rights of religious parents to condemn their children to death.

[jaydah]

the vids & photos are easily set up. Imagine scenario; dingaling dingaling....

"hello mum"
Your dinner is getting cold
"I'll be there in 5mins, mum" (Sounds of firing ak-aks)
ok darling, bread pudding for afters.
"yummy, am on my way" !

Is it likely the soldier/terrorist carries SOTArt ipod ?

[123everton]

Modeller, conscientious objector I am not.
Furthermore people have died under torture (Baha Moussa) and that's just what we got to know of.
There are reports of voalition forces shooting people "for sport", I am dubious of this claim as I know of some of the field tactics being used, to the casual observer it may well seem that way.
Naomi, yawn, bait and switch from the person who says there's others in this thread and not wanting to get into a personal argument, you're such a hypocrite and ever so predictable.

[naomi24]

Everton, personal insults are no substitute for intelligent argument. I'm simply highlighting the glaring irrationality of your consistently sanctimonious lectures. You don't even recognise your own inconsistencies.

[123everton]

You evaded a question, and when asked again you took your bat and ball home saying that you didn't want to get involved in a personal argument.
The fact that you ducked the question proved the point I was making, so I left it, bear in mind you troll about the site asking Keyplus to answer questions on other threads "that require his attention" this is typical of your own double standard, hypocrisy and inconsistency.
Furthermore there's nothing inconsistent with my views, I don't view Muslims as backward and barbaric (I object to those adjectives) any more than I view us in the west as being civilised and cultured etc.
I've always said that we are no better than them, no creed, colour or race is better than anyone.
So to sum up, now that I have your attention, given that you view torture as an end which suits the means, perhaps you could say quite how a civilised, modern, cultured, reasonable and rational people, ruled by just laws can justify torture?

[naomi24]

Everton, as I said, personal insults are no substitute for intelligent debate . Come back when you have something sensible to say.

[123everton]

Given that you view torture as an end which suits the means, perhaps you could say quite how a civilised, modern, cultured, reasonable and rational people, ruled by just laws can justify torture?
That's about as sensibile a question you can get, in fact it's the whole thread's basis.

[naomi24]

You assume you know my opinions on the use of torture but you don't because I haven't given them. The question relates to a specific hypothetical scenario and that's all I have addressed.

[123everton]

"naomi24
If it prevented hundreds or thousands being killed, yes.
08:09 Tue 09th Nov 2010
Report"
That's where you came in.
"then the ends justify the means, don't they?"
That's the end of the question which you've answered.
You've offered no evidence to support your contention.

[naomi24]

What on earth are you talking about Everton? How can you expect evidence from a hypothetical situation? I tried to stop you hijacking this thread earlier, just as I tried to stop others from leading it off course in the beginning, so let this be an end to it. There are other people contributing here who, amid your nonsense, will not be able to get a word in edgeways - as usual.

[sandyRoe]

It's unlikely that torture has ever stopped a ticking bomb. It might provide background information, but that could have been obtained by conventional methods of interrogation.
Bush was told that waterboarding wasn't torture. He was probably told that its use had prevented attacks on Heathrow and Canary Wharf.
It seems he'd believe anything.

[naomi24]

Yes, I really think he would Sandy. I loved his gems of wisdom like 'Most imports come from abroad' - or words to that effect. Priceless!

[123everton]

It's not a hypothetical situation, we have used torture, we have used secret prisons, it brought about a huge escalation in the Iraqi insurgency.
You still haven't answered the question.
You're so piquey when you lose, it's almost endearing, lol.

[naomi24]

Everton, I'm not the only one reading this and you're making an absolute twit of yourself. This was a hypothetical question to which I gave a hypothetical answer. Now wage your stupid personal vendetta against me elsewhere. Stop destroying other people's threads.