Muslim prejudice normal?

[jake-the-peg]

Baroness Warsi is to say that prejudice against muslims has become socially acceptable and is the last basion of biggotry in this country is she right?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12235237

[ludwig]

Why is everyone discussing the Muslim birth rate instead of answering Jake's question?

[Gromit]

// we seem to have a disparity in perceived Muslim sprogging rates! //

Fertility by ethnic and religious groups in the UK, trends in a multi-cultural context
Sylvie Dubuc, University of Oxford - Presented at the IUSSP International Population Conference, Marrakech, October. 2009


// A rapid and continuing decline of total Fertility Rates for the Pakistani and Bangladeshi groups since 1987 support the idea of fertility convergence across ethnic groups in the UK although some differences remain between groups. Overall fertility of foreign-born women is higher than that of UK-born women. However, the proportion of immigrants and the level of fertility in the country of origin may not fully explain the observed differences across ethnic groups. Cross-analysis of fertility by ethnic and religious belonging may suggest overall decreasing influences of both cultural traits in shaping fertility over time in the UK multi-cultural context. //

http://iussp2009.prin...px?submissionId=93139

[sp1814]

Ludwig

Because after the first twenty responses on any question in the News AB section, the answers start to 'self-generate' and spin off into all sorts of interesting directions/rabbit holes (depending on your point of view).

[ludwig]

Yes sp, but the muslim birth rate has been discussed 600 trillion times before. This Baroness Varsi thing is a brand new thing that she said yesterday, which Jake would like to know our opinions about.

[anotheoldgit]

Davethedog

Very well put.

[anotheoldgit]

pa___ul3

/// I found this quite interesting, I wonder if AOG will completely ignore it - Muhammad Abdul Bari, general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain,: "We each have our own set of beliefs. This should really be a source of celebration rather than fear as long as we all clearly understand that we must abide by the laws of this country regardless of the faith we belong to,” ///

The MCB, was this the organisation that was criticised for boycotting Holocaust Day and which had it's Government funding cut following claims that it had links with extremists?

He also said this,

" British people could, in his view, benefit from arranged marriages. "I prefer to call them assisted marriages," he says".

" Homosexuality is "unacceptable from the religious point of view".

" There is, in his view, no such thing as Islamic terrorism."

"Sir Salman Rushdie should never have been knighted, he says. "He caused a huge amount of distress and discordance with his book, it should have been pulped."

In Dr Bari's view, suicide bombers are victims as well as aggressors

[naomi24]

Ludwig, you are right. I didn't answer the question exactly but I will rectify that now. No I don't think she is right. It hasn't become socially acceptable in my world and from what I can see around me - including AB - more people seem to be accepting of others than not.
.
Having said that, I would like to pick up on my original point because if people are ever going to learn to live together in harmony it is vitally important to concede that prejudice works both ways and we need to try to understand why anyone harbours ill feeling. Concern about the high birth rate among Muslims is very much one of the reasons some indigenous Brits are distrustful, and in that case it equates to fear. We should be seriously addressing the issues that worry people - on both sides - rather than simply dismissing their concerns and branding them prejudiced. To do that is blinkered in the extreme.

[pa___ul3]

AOG - of those other quotes I can't really argue with any, I don't know enough about the Satanic Verses controversy to have a valid opinion on that point, the others are his opinions or observations, I disagree with the 'assisted marriage' point but would be open to hear his foundations, homosexuality is unacceptable in many religions views, I disagree with that religious view, he's not saying it's his view, to say there is no Islamic terrorism is obviously an act towards disassociating the acts of Muslim terrorists with the religion.

[pa___ul3]

oh and Naomi, that's a really good point, I think many of us, definitely myself, tend to jump up too quickly in the face of perceived extreme prejudice. There is always a source of negative feelings and they should absolutely be addressed by all parties concerned.

[anotheoldgit]

Regarding the question about Islam taking over the whole of the UK, maybe that is not possible.

I don't think they would wish to move into some parts of the UK, for example Cornwall perhaps, some area of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, maybe.

But as can be seen now they are making a good job of completely taking over some whole towns and Cities in Britain already.

And in a few more score years what then?.

[pa___ul3]

then all the miserable old bigots will have died out and people will live harmoniously regardless of religious beliefs.

[Backdrifter]

There's a difference between comments being "socially acceptable" and being the kind of thing some people don't hesitate to voice. I don't think anti-Muslim comments have become socially acceptable, but the people I've heard voice them seem more willing to state them rather than any other prejudices they might also have. So it's more a case of SOME people don't withhold those views, whereas they might withhold others.

I have had conversations with people who taint all Muslims with the actions of Isamist extremists and terrorists. I do remember some similar attituides towards Irish people in the 70s and 80s, ranging from outright abuse and mistrust to moronic attempts at jokey comments, "You're Irish, oooh please don't blow me up" etc.

Some of the tangential comments above about birth rates and whether Muslims might be "taking over" certain areas of the UK seem overheated and not very well thought-through. Specific population growths are statistically more complex processes than can be oversimplified in the way of some of the earlier posts.

[anotheoldgit]

pa___ul3

/// then all the miserable old bigots will have died out and people will live harmoniously regardless of religious beliefs.///

Are you so naive enough to believe in your own words?

Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth, and the only way that the West and Islam will live harmoniously side by side as you envisage, is for the West to embrace Islam and take on board it's culture and beliefs, Islam will accept nothing less.

[pa___ul3]

I was being a little tongue in cheek, there'll always be idiots. Can you tell me how you can about this information? I mean, I know of plenty of Muslims who sit very comfortably in a multi-racial community, you could say harmoniously along side Brits, without requesting they take on board their beliefs. In fact that quote I posted earlier from Muhammad Abdul Bari completely contradicts what you're suggesting is the attitude of Muslims. I told you you'd ignore it, didn't I!?

[Khandro]

"she will also suggest that some Muslim communities must do more to make clear to extremists that their beliefs and actions are not acceptable". Well bully for her!

[anotheoldgit]

Backdrifter

/// Some of the tangential comments above about birth rates and whether Muslims might be "taking over" certain areas of the UK seem overheated and not very well thought-through ///

You have definite proof then that certain towns in Britain are not being taken over?

Your analogy with the Irish just does not work.

The Irish are European, both in where they live and in their culture.

The Irish never tried to force their completely alien culture onto us.

[anotheoldgit]

pa___ul3

/// I was being a little tongue in cheek, ///

Always a good excuse when one is in a tight corner of an argument, that is the benefit of being 'on line', one cannot see one's face.

/// I told you you'd ignore it, didn't I!? ///

I did not ignore it, I gave you quite an extensive report on your Muhammad Abdul Bari,

Which well went to show that he 'talks with forked tongue'.

[pa___ul3]

ha, I wasn't sat here literally with my tongue in my cheek! I think it's fair to say I give my opinion without shying from it. You didn't say anything about the 1st quote, only gave some more which I said I personally have no problem with them, I'd hardly start thinking he's a threat on British Culture because of what he's said, and then what you're trying to pass off as the general Muslim attitude goes completely against what he's said, suggesting you've not bothered to listen to actual quotes from an actual high profile spokesman for the Muslim community of Great Britain and chosen, instead, to fabricate your own unfounded opinion of what their views are.

[jake-the-peg]

//The Irish never tried to force their completely alien culture onto us. //

I think most Irish would tell you was not true in reverse and that an Alien British culture was quite violently enforce on the Irish