Gaza

[georgit79]

Can someone explain to me the exact situation in Gaza, where Israeli troops are trying to evict Jewish settlers? Haven't been paying much attention and want to get my facts straight.

Thanks oh oasis of intelligence.

[nedflanders]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4155184.stm  click to enlarge the pop up map it gives you a good guide of the plan.

[georgit79]

cheers ned.

[BigDogsWang]

It sickens me that Hamas is claiming all the credit.

[Dom Tuk]

A group of people who were victimsed by the nazis and had horrendous acts of depravity committed on them decided to go someplace else and take it over. unfortunately that someplace else was occupied by people who had lived there for a very long time. The group of people did not pay any heed to these people and threw them out of their land claiming that some prehistoric book, whose authenticity can not be proven gives them the right to that land. They then invited all their relatives from all over the world to come and live with them and for 40 years they did this and build more houses. now things would not have been so bad if the original group had lived at this place as there was space for them there (and there was genuine sympathy for their plight). But inviting all their relatives over many decades and taking more land caused a lot of resentment. Now they are finally giving back some of that land which was not theirs in the first place. Oh yeah they were also friends of the americans.

[BigDogsWang]

The Gaza strip (which is what we are talking about) is mostly under the control of the Palestinian authority with small areas occupied by Israeli settlements. To claim that the jews 'took it over' is ignorant of the history of the middle east.

Jewish people occupied Palestine for thousands of years before the Muslim Armies invaded in the 7th Century.

I don't think it is fair therefore to portray the Jews as 'taking over' an area where their history / connection with that area spans several millenium.

[Dom Tuk]

BDW...would you give up your house to someone who claims that their people occupied that piece of land a few thousand years ago. How many thousands of years would you like to go back to in order to settle the titles of a land. Would you look at land records that are probably a few hundred years old and thus probably verifiable or will a bible do as a form of land registry.

[georgit79]

oh goody I've started a new squabble!

[BigDogsWang]

Point taken Dom, but are you therefore saying that no Semitics ever occupied the Middle East until the 1950�s? Are you saying we only have the Bible�s interpretation? (I am an atheist by the way). Is there no other documented evidence that Jews existed in the area? In the early 1900�s, the population of Palestine was around 80% Arab, with the other 20% being Jewish. So the Jews have not recently �Jack booted� a country in which they had no history.

I agree that the treatment by various successive Governments of Israel towards the Palestinian people has been atrocious, and I am not condoning that treatment in the slightest. So please don�t get me wrong. I just think that the Jewish people�s connections with the Middle East are far more involved than you are suggesting.

[Dom Tuk]

No no, the jewish people were in that part of the world, in its past histor, there is no doubt about that. But that does not give them the right to claim the land and displace the pople who have been living there. A palestinian farmer once interviewed on channel 4 said that during every argument/discussion with the settlers who had encroached into his farmland (he was an olive farmer and wealthy) he was shown the bible as the book that gave the settlers the divine right to that land. What sort of debate can you have with an Ukranian or a Latvian jew who has arrived in that land within the past 5 (Yes literally) years and claims it as his own. The unrelenting resettlement of jews from the former soviet bloc in lands that were clearly encroached upon has been the main problem for the past 15 years.

[BigDogsWang]

I just hope to god (the one I don�t believe in!) that the Gaza pull out goes some way to defusing the hatred between the two. It certainly appears that the Arab world are rejoicing at the news. However, it is the hard line extremists who worry me, as they seem to want the whole of Israel to be wiped out.

Time will tell, and Mahmood Abbas must be congratulated for his work since coming to power so far. I just hope he can keep Hamas pacified.

[FP]

Dom Tuk I have just read your  postings on this thread and want to say that you have phrased so well and concisely everything that I have always felt so strongly about.    I have copied and pasted your replies.  Thanks.

[kempie]

"...are you therefore saying that no Semitics ever occupied the Middle East until the 1950�s?"

BDW... Arabs are Semitic also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semite

[Chessman]

having read all the answers, I must say how well informed they are, but as a matter of interest, no matter how much land the Jews give to the Palestinians, they will still want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, their mandate STILL calls for Israels destruction, and until they amend that, I can't see any lasting peace.

[bazwillrun]

as usual with people like the palestinians, when somebody else has turned a desert/wasteland into something worth having then they want it back !

before the israelis moved  in there was nothing there but sand and rock more sand and........the palestinians are so jealous of isreali achievements in the area it defies belief.

[Zen]

The Nazis had Lebensraum,the Israelis have settlements,
Same philosophy of ethnic cleansing,different name.

[stevie_c2it]

Zen, the difference is the Germans were looking to invade, conquer and rule most of the countries of Europe (While committing genocide on the Jewish race, based on a personal vendetta Hitler had dating back to the Great war), while the Jews are looking just to survive whilst being surrounded on all sides by extremist Islamic states who want to finish the job.

This act of appeasement didn't work for chamberlain, and it won't work for the Jews. Sadly they'll be sacrificed to the militants and terrorists (even by the Americans) in the hope of stemming the tide of support in the escalating so-called 'War on terror'.  

[jno]

bazwillrun, the Palestinians have wanted the land back all the time, not just since the Israelis turned it into 'something worth having'.

A very fair summing up, Dom Tuk. Modest amounts of land occupied by Jewish settlements are being returned to their previous owners. Those settlers being evicted are often hardliners and see giving anything at all to Arabs as outrageous; though others, I believe, just don't want to lose their homes... but then, neither did the Palestinians.

[gum]

Well done Dom Tuk, you've summed up the situation really well. But some of the other posts I'm reading are nonsense. Is anyone really stupid enough to believe everything the media tells them?
stevie_c2it, please explain to me what is meant by 'surrounded on all sides by extremist Islamic states who want to finish the job'. Because you've been there and you've seen this for yourself? Have you recently been on a tour of the middle east which is still giving you nightmares?

Chessman, maybe you're missing something..hardline Israelis also want to wipe Palestine off the face of the Earth, this bitter arguement works both ways you know.

May I also add that the settlements are illegal, which the settlers have always known, and that Israel controls all land, sea, borders and air space that exist in and around Gaza . From what some christians, muslims and jews who have lived in Israel and Palestine have told me, its just like an open air prison.
What a fine example of living in a 'civilised' world.....

[gum]

Pardon me, not 'open air' prison, I nearly forgot the air was occupied aswell. Just a prison then.

[karabulut]

I'm waiting for bernardo's input..