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questions for christians
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You say that the bible is the innerant word of God and without contradiction so it should be a simple matter to answer a few questions for me.I ask you a question and you look up the appropriate bible answer for me (complete with chapter and verse).O.k ?
1) does the Earth abide forever?
2)has anyone ever seen God?
3)does God punish children for their fathers sins?
4)are the dead ressurected?
5)has anyone (apart from jesus) ascended into heaven?6)at what hour was jesus crucified?
7)how long was jesus in the tomb?
If the bible is innerant this should be easy for you.If its contradictory it might pose problems and cause you (as it did me) to question whether it is reliable.
1) does the Earth abide forever?
2)has anyone ever seen God?
3)does God punish children for their fathers sins?
4)are the dead ressurected?
5)has anyone (apart from jesus) ascended into heaven?6)at what hour was jesus crucified?
7)how long was jesus in the tomb?
If the bible is innerant this should be easy for you.If its contradictory it might pose problems and cause you (as it did me) to question whether it is reliable.
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Before going on to trying to answer your questions, just an observation worth considering.
Many political / social systems try to address the problems that mankind faces, by economic plans, crime and punishment legislation, welfare and job creation etc. In other words, measures to exert external influence on individual members of society, and therefore on society as a whole, to produce, hopefully, a better society.
Christianity takes a different view. The Bible claims that sin is the problem, and that each individual has to be regenerated, "born again," from within. That being the way to a better society.
Regardless of you unbelief in God, do you not agree that personal regeneration is the key, not social action, which has failed miserably to produce the society we desire?
This is the main thrust of Christianity, the "big picture" if you like.
Your valid questions are directed towards the "nuts and bolts" and ignoring the function of the whole "machine."
Nevertheless, within the time constraints on me, I shall try to discuss your qustions.
Many political / social systems try to address the problems that mankind faces, by economic plans, crime and punishment legislation, welfare and job creation etc. In other words, measures to exert external influence on individual members of society, and therefore on society as a whole, to produce, hopefully, a better society.
Christianity takes a different view. The Bible claims that sin is the problem, and that each individual has to be regenerated, "born again," from within. That being the way to a better society.
Regardless of you unbelief in God, do you not agree that personal regeneration is the key, not social action, which has failed miserably to produce the society we desire?
This is the main thrust of Christianity, the "big picture" if you like.
Your valid questions are directed towards the "nuts and bolts" and ignoring the function of the whole "machine."
Nevertheless, within the time constraints on me, I shall try to discuss your qustions.
Just another thought.
No Christian is ever going to become a threat to you personally, or to society.
Islam, on the other hand, is a very real threat, to all of us, both at a personal level, (9/11 and 7/7 for example), and at societal level, as they demand, and get preferential treatment through constant demands on the rest of us, which weakens us constantly.
No Christian is ever going to become a threat to you personally, or to society.
Islam, on the other hand, is a very real threat, to all of us, both at a personal level, (9/11 and 7/7 for example), and at societal level, as they demand, and get preferential treatment through constant demands on the rest of us, which weakens us constantly.
I don't really have time to look up a number of passages since i'm at work. I can do one:
7) Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
As for the others, I think someone saw God's back at one point in the bible. The dead are sometimes ressurected, e.g. Lazarus.
7) Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
As for the others, I think someone saw God's back at one point in the bible. The dead are sometimes ressurected, e.g. Lazarus.
Historically speaking there's loads of evidence to show that far from your suggestion, Christians can absolutely be a threat to individuals and society, just ask the Jews caught in the pogroms, or those tortured to death by the inquisition (cue the disingenous 'but they're not proper Christians' defence...)
In modern society too, Christians can are and a threat to individuals and society; just ask the women denied the opportunity to get an abortion, or the homosexuals denied the right to marry, or a US foreign policy in part dictated by the same, or a small Scottish cancer charity forced to turn down a hefty donation because of a campaign of harrasment by evangelical Christians opposed to the donor (a satirical opera, whose cast and crew were subjected to death threats from those who disapproved and which has been banned from performing in numerous venues around the country by people opposed to freedom of speech...
I could go on...
In modern society too, Christians can are and a threat to individuals and society; just ask the women denied the opportunity to get an abortion, or the homosexuals denied the right to marry, or a US foreign policy in part dictated by the same, or a small Scottish cancer charity forced to turn down a hefty donation because of a campaign of harrasment by evangelical Christians opposed to the donor (a satirical opera, whose cast and crew were subjected to death threats from those who disapproved and which has been banned from performing in numerous venues around the country by people opposed to freedom of speech...
I could go on...
What waldo says is fair. But we shoudn't forget that it isn't one religion or another that produces threat or wrong doing. It's people misinterpreting or taking things too far. And anyone is capable of this, not just the religious.
We digress. What I wondered about when reading your question wizard, is that are you suggesting that the inability of someone to produce a quote from a +1000 page book means the book is contradictory? Surely that is a very tenuous link indeed.
We digress. What I wondered about when reading your question wizard, is that are you suggesting that the inability of someone to produce a quote from a +1000 page book means the book is contradictory? Surely that is a very tenuous link indeed.
Mark 15:25
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
John 19:14-16
"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."
To be honest, I would consider that a fairly trivial example, though for a supposedly revealed book, it's rather unexpected. There's far more dangerous contradictions in the Bible.
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
John 19:14-16
"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."
To be honest, I would consider that a fairly trivial example, though for a supposedly revealed book, it's rather unexpected. There's far more dangerous contradictions in the Bible.
mikeyp, friday night until sunday morning IS NOT 3 days and 3 nights...Jacob claimed to have seen God face to face(Gen:32 v30) contradicting John 1:18). Job 7:9 says that he who goes to the grave does not return (when this was written there was no belief in the afterlife). The point of this thread mikeyp is that the bible is hopelessly contradictory and (as pointed out by waldo) throws doubt on said document. The crucifixion (or should that be cruciFICTION) accounts cannot be put together in one continuous story without leaving bits out.
a few gospel contradictions here..
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contradictions/g ospel_wars_matthew_vs_john.htm
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contradictions/g ospel_wars_matthew_vs_john.htm
Wizard. I'm pretty sure in the bible it does not say that Jesus was crucified on the Friday. That's a more recent belief, not a contradiction. In a similar way to christmas day probably not being the day jesus was born on, there's no reason to change it. Its the birth that is important.
Jacob could have been wrong in his claim. Or maybe it has been misinterpreted. Perhaps to see god means to know him?
Job may be correct in his claim, but I would quite happily say Jesus was a very special case. Both in his resurrection and the resurrection of others.
While it's wonderful that you can find picky contradictions in another's beliefs to help you justify your own, is this really important? The important thing is whether any of it is true. You're perfectly entitled to believe it isn't. Maybe you think these contradictions are proof that it can't be trusted. My opinion is that these are small pedantic things of no real concern.
But the important thing is to remember that these are my beliefs, and i'm perfectly justified and entitled to have them. Phrases like "hopelessly contradictory" and "cruciFICTION" are nothing more than your opinion. Something which I respect, but am along way from accepting as truth.
Jacob could have been wrong in his claim. Or maybe it has been misinterpreted. Perhaps to see god means to know him?
Job may be correct in his claim, but I would quite happily say Jesus was a very special case. Both in his resurrection and the resurrection of others.
While it's wonderful that you can find picky contradictions in another's beliefs to help you justify your own, is this really important? The important thing is whether any of it is true. You're perfectly entitled to believe it isn't. Maybe you think these contradictions are proof that it can't be trusted. My opinion is that these are small pedantic things of no real concern.
But the important thing is to remember that these are my beliefs, and i'm perfectly justified and entitled to have them. Phrases like "hopelessly contradictory" and "cruciFICTION" are nothing more than your opinion. Something which I respect, but am along way from accepting as truth.
However, given that many put their money on the Bible being a revealed text, given that there are people willing to die for what they believe is the word of God, and people willing to kill for what they believe is the word of God, it does matter a great deal, even if those are the extremists we're talking about.
What about the (comparatively) more mundane rules that govern how some live their lives? Is divorce ever acceptable?
Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery. -- Mark 10:11
Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery. -- Matthew 5:32
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. -- Deuteronomy 24:1-2
Which is it? People live their lives according to these things.
Should Christians keep the OT laws?
Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Etc. etc.
What about the (comparatively) more mundane rules that govern how some live their lives? Is divorce ever acceptable?
Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery. -- Mark 10:11
Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery. -- Matthew 5:32
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. -- Deuteronomy 24:1-2
Which is it? People live their lives according to these things.
Should Christians keep the OT laws?
Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Etc. etc.
The bible puts a lot of emphasis on no pre-marital sex. The last comment states if you discover that your wife is not a virgin, you should divorce her. If not then you're in the wrong. This seems fair to me, it's VERY old fashioned, but I still think if you promise to spend your life with someone, and you dont, that's not quite right. As for the no pre-marital sex, this is not something i'm going to comment on. It's a private matter and non of my business.
As for laws, the bible also says governments have the right to rule over people. Some ott laws might not be correct. Surely very traditional laws that don't work anymore can be applied cautiously. I know when and when not to follow a rule. It's personal interpretation, yes people misinterpret, but that's really their fault.
As for laws, the bible also says governments have the right to rule over people. Some ott laws might not be correct. Surely very traditional laws that don't work anymore can be applied cautiously. I know when and when not to follow a rule. It's personal interpretation, yes people misinterpret, but that's really their fault.
mikeyp... you are proving the point that the bible is hoplessly contradictory.Stoning women to death is barbaric and yet sanctioned in the bible.Moses didnt turn the other cheek. And jesus didnt practice what he preached.After telling his diciples to turn the other cheek and forgive their enemies he went charging into the temple with a whip....do as I say not what I do, springs to mind.
At the time the Bible was written these things were ok. Yes we've moved on, but if in another 1000 years people think *we* were barbaric, I'm not going to feel guilty about it. Times and opinions change, you cant blame someone for condoning something that was deemed right at the time. They were told it was, they don't know any better. You're on a high horse because you've been taught stuff is wrong when other people didn't get taught. I'm not defending it, i'm just showing why it says what it says.
Forgiveness and ignoring others blasphemy etc is not the same thing. Especially for Jesus. Also, since Jesus was without sin, and was in fact God, he is justified in judging others. The disciples are not. "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone?" And Moses was not a perfect man.
Forgiveness and ignoring others blasphemy etc is not the same thing. Especially for Jesus. Also, since Jesus was without sin, and was in fact God, he is justified in judging others. The disciples are not. "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone?" And Moses was not a perfect man.
mikeyp...so you dont believe that God ordered the stoning to death of women for not bleeding on their wedding night?
To have a debate such as this we need to know exactly what parts of the bible that you accept as authorative (ie.inspired of God) and what parts you wish to ignore.The fact remains that if you wish to believe that God talked to Moses then you have to accept that the same God ordered these barbaric punishments and not wrigggle out of it by saying that was just how it was way back then.You will quote the ten commandments but ignore the bloodshed,
you will believe that Proverbs contains wisdom but excuse the genocide, you will believe that God is love and turn a blind eye to his cruel and merciless punishments, you will say that the psalms are beatiful and yet ignore the homophobia,sexism,racism and child abuse.
Mikeyp, did God,or did God not order the deaths of thousands in the O.T? Did God , or did God not order the stoning to death for misdemeanors?
As for being on my high horse...I get a better view �_�
To have a debate such as this we need to know exactly what parts of the bible that you accept as authorative (ie.inspired of God) and what parts you wish to ignore.The fact remains that if you wish to believe that God talked to Moses then you have to accept that the same God ordered these barbaric punishments and not wrigggle out of it by saying that was just how it was way back then.You will quote the ten commandments but ignore the bloodshed,
you will believe that Proverbs contains wisdom but excuse the genocide, you will believe that God is love and turn a blind eye to his cruel and merciless punishments, you will say that the psalms are beatiful and yet ignore the homophobia,sexism,racism and child abuse.
Mikeyp, did God,or did God not order the deaths of thousands in the O.T? Did God , or did God not order the stoning to death for misdemeanors?
As for being on my high horse...I get a better view �_�
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