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Moving back
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I have a friend who has lived in South Africa for the last 34 years. Unfortunately her marriage is coming to an end.
She holds both UK and RSA passports and she is wondering what she can do about housing and her pension if she was to move back to the UK, i.e would she go straight onto a housing list (and where could she live in the meantime) and could her pension be transferred from South Africa to here?
I have no idea about her financial position and don't like to ask.
She holds both UK and RSA passports and she is wondering what she can do about housing and her pension if she was to move back to the UK, i.e would she go straight onto a housing list (and where could she live in the meantime) and could her pension be transferred from South Africa to here?
I have no idea about her financial position and don't like to ask.
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I am sorry for your friend's situation,but I feel she would be unwise to "bolt" back to the UK.
As she has been away for SO long she will get very few(if any) benefits.
She CAN apply for Council Housing,but she will be considered to have made herself homeless(as she has left another country for reasons other than asylum etc) she will go to the bottom of the housing list,and stay there.
If she wishes to live in the UK until she gets Council Housing (which could be a VERY long wait) she would have to rent somewhere.
We have a friend ijn the same situation,who left SA because she (and her husband) felt that SA had become too dangerous.She too did not check out the consequences.She gets no UK pension (understandably as she hasn't paid in for one).
However,and this is the important part,her SA Pension is non transferable and only payable in SA.This (presumably) could affect your friend's ideas of returning to the UK?
I wish your friend well, but DO really feel that she would be better trying to make a new life in SA.
Our friend thought that the UK would be the same as it was when she left (in 1969) and of course it is not,it has changed considerably.
As she has been away for SO long she will get very few(if any) benefits.
She CAN apply for Council Housing,but she will be considered to have made herself homeless(as she has left another country for reasons other than asylum etc) she will go to the bottom of the housing list,and stay there.
If she wishes to live in the UK until she gets Council Housing (which could be a VERY long wait) she would have to rent somewhere.
We have a friend ijn the same situation,who left SA because she (and her husband) felt that SA had become too dangerous.She too did not check out the consequences.She gets no UK pension (understandably as she hasn't paid in for one).
However,and this is the important part,her SA Pension is non transferable and only payable in SA.This (presumably) could affect your friend's ideas of returning to the UK?
I wish your friend well, but DO really feel that she would be better trying to make a new life in SA.
Our friend thought that the UK would be the same as it was when she left (in 1969) and of course it is not,it has changed considerably.
Her best bet is to send any money she has to someone in the UK for safe keeping in advance of her trip. Then arrive at Heathrow having thrown her travel documents, passport and anything else that may identify her down the toilet on the aircraft.
Then, upon arrival, provided the immigration authorities with a false name, saying she has left SA and claims asylum in the UK as she is in danger of persecution because of her religion/nationality/sexual orientation (bit of research needed here to find out what people in SA are persecuted for). She should say that she is desitute and has only the clothes she stands up in.
Then, hey presto! A council flat (something she would never get if she arrived legally) and a few bob to live on whilst her claim is assessed (average period about five years, by which time she should have sorted herself out).
Or does that sound a bit cynical?
Then, upon arrival, provided the immigration authorities with a false name, saying she has left SA and claims asylum in the UK as she is in danger of persecution because of her religion/nationality/sexual orientation (bit of research needed here to find out what people in SA are persecuted for). She should say that she is desitute and has only the clothes she stands up in.
Then, hey presto! A council flat (something she would never get if she arrived legally) and a few bob to live on whilst her claim is assessed (average period about five years, by which time she should have sorted herself out).
Or does that sound a bit cynical?
New Judge, yeah that does sound a tad cynical, amusing but cynical.
Mr Veritas you paint a bleak but honest picture.
As for 'bolting' back, it seems her situation has been ongoing for some time now. She has apparently been trying to find ways of saving her marriage but unfortunately to no avail. Her husband is South African and would obviously be staying there.
Also they travelled all over SA during their working lives and consequently were never in one place long enough to make friends. They now live miles away from their nearest neighbour and yes, she says it is very unsafe.
A bleak life for her whatever she does.
It just all seems so unjust.
Mr Veritas you paint a bleak but honest picture.
As for 'bolting' back, it seems her situation has been ongoing for some time now. She has apparently been trying to find ways of saving her marriage but unfortunately to no avail. Her husband is South African and would obviously be staying there.
Also they travelled all over SA during their working lives and consequently were never in one place long enough to make friends. They now live miles away from their nearest neighbour and yes, she says it is very unsafe.
A bleak life for her whatever she does.
It just all seems so unjust.
I apologise for the use of the word "bolt",what I mean to say but didn't, was she needs to come back in haste,that is she can't really give time to consider what she may be doing.
I do hope that all goes well for,BUT I can't see that happening in the UK.
If I could get her to talk to our friend(as above) she might think twice about returning to the UK.Our friend was pressurised into returning to the UK by her husband and regrets it bitterly.
Now that the world is in a deep recession governments(and indeed councils) are very loathe to provide services and benefits to those that (in their terminology) have made themselves " intentionally homeless".
I don't say she couldn't make it here,only tha it could be VERY difficult for her.
I wish her well whatever she decides.
I do hope that all goes well for,BUT I can't see that happening in the UK.
If I could get her to talk to our friend(as above) she might think twice about returning to the UK.Our friend was pressurised into returning to the UK by her husband and regrets it bitterly.
Now that the world is in a deep recession governments(and indeed councils) are very loathe to provide services and benefits to those that (in their terminology) have made themselves " intentionally homeless".
I don't say she couldn't make it here,only tha it could be VERY difficult for her.
I wish her well whatever she decides.
No need to apologise Mr Veritas, I took your point.
I've actually spoken to her since your first reply and kind of hinted that things would be difficult if not well nigh impossible over here. She is distraught and says it could not be any worse (I disagreed) than the life, or total lack of one, that she has over there.
Her way of looking at it is, at least she knows some, if not many people here and barely has contact with anyone at all in SA.
She has though, promised to give it a lot more thought.
Thank you for your help.
I've actually spoken to her since your first reply and kind of hinted that things would be difficult if not well nigh impossible over here. She is distraught and says it could not be any worse (I disagreed) than the life, or total lack of one, that she has over there.
Her way of looking at it is, at least she knows some, if not many people here and barely has contact with anyone at all in SA.
She has though, promised to give it a lot more thought.
Thank you for your help.
Sorry to add more,but the fact that she HAS a husband (who I assume she is still married to?) will count against her.
UK Immigration will want to know WHY she wants to return but her husband does not.
They will also want to know why her husband cannot finance her when she returns,this may sound crazy but it's the way the Immigration rules work.
They will be working on the idea that she should have made financial provision for her return to the UK,OR that her husband should be providing finance.If they had both returned (of course he may not be a UK person) it might be different.
Immigration are (in their minds) going to see something suspicious as to WHY she wants to return when she is still married,and maybe even has property in SA.
These are not MY ideas,but I know how these officials minds work.
As you can see,FIRST she has to get into the country (to stay that is) just because she has joint passports doesn't give her automatic status,especially after 34 years.SECOND,she has to finance herself while being here.
That is money to live on,money for rent.
You don't say how old she is,but I guess 54ish.Jobs for UK citizens with experience are hard enough to come by in a recession;jobs for incoming (maybe) unexperienced mature persons are practically non~existent.
Not only that but she will not qualify for a UK State Pension, so (like our friends) she may have to go on working till she drops.
I really am sorry to be such a wet blanket,but I feel from is jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
She may have few friends in SA,but at least she knows the country,I cannot think it would be the same here.
Is there any possibily that she could get one of her UK friends to accomodate her,just till she gets on her feet;at least that would be a start.
Just impress on her that the UK she knew(in 1975) is NOT the UK WE know.
As I said before I hope (with a friend like you) that
UK Immigration will want to know WHY she wants to return but her husband does not.
They will also want to know why her husband cannot finance her when she returns,this may sound crazy but it's the way the Immigration rules work.
They will be working on the idea that she should have made financial provision for her return to the UK,OR that her husband should be providing finance.If they had both returned (of course he may not be a UK person) it might be different.
Immigration are (in their minds) going to see something suspicious as to WHY she wants to return when she is still married,and maybe even has property in SA.
These are not MY ideas,but I know how these officials minds work.
As you can see,FIRST she has to get into the country (to stay that is) just because she has joint passports doesn't give her automatic status,especially after 34 years.SECOND,she has to finance herself while being here.
That is money to live on,money for rent.
You don't say how old she is,but I guess 54ish.Jobs for UK citizens with experience are hard enough to come by in a recession;jobs for incoming (maybe) unexperienced mature persons are practically non~existent.
Not only that but she will not qualify for a UK State Pension, so (like our friends) she may have to go on working till she drops.
I really am sorry to be such a wet blanket,but I feel from is jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
She may have few friends in SA,but at least she knows the country,I cannot think it would be the same here.
Is there any possibily that she could get one of her UK friends to accomodate her,just till she gets on her feet;at least that would be a start.
Just impress on her that the UK she knew(in 1975) is NOT the UK WE know.
As I said before I hope (with a friend like you) that
Oh this just gets blacker and blacker for her, but of course your right, and thank you again for the detailed answer.
A couple of your points if I may.
Yes she is still married but it looks like it's not for long (his wish).
He is South African, she is British.
I know nothing of their finances ie property etc.
You are of course correct in that the official mind works in a way the layman would consider crazy.
As for the work situation, again a black picture. Although a qualified teacher (after many years as an office manager) her age will be against her. She is 61.
I'm afraid your last reply ended abruptly but I have thought about someone putting her up, maybe me if she needed to but what would that mean, as in would my council tax etc. go up (I live alone) even though she may not be able to help financially. Again I am assuming she has little money and I don't want to burden her further.
Sorry to ask what will appear to be stupid questions but I do worry for her.
A couple of your points if I may.
Yes she is still married but it looks like it's not for long (his wish).
He is South African, she is British.
I know nothing of their finances ie property etc.
You are of course correct in that the official mind works in a way the layman would consider crazy.
As for the work situation, again a black picture. Although a qualified teacher (after many years as an office manager) her age will be against her. She is 61.
I'm afraid your last reply ended abruptly but I have thought about someone putting her up, maybe me if she needed to but what would that mean, as in would my council tax etc. go up (I live alone) even though she may not be able to help financially. Again I am assuming she has little money and I don't want to burden her further.
Sorry to ask what will appear to be stupid questions but I do worry for her.
Apologies,AB used to warn you when your post was too long,but doesn't seem to happen now!
ALL that was missing was~"As I said before I hope (with a friend like you) that she can be persuaded that staying in SA is her safest option"
Yes her age (regarding employment) is against her,as you know most (but not all) women in the UK retire at 60;and of course she will not be in receipt of a pension.
Even assuming she could get a teaching(supply?) job,teaching methods and manners are vastly different to SA.
I get the feeling that she thinks the UK is "the promised land",sadly it hasn't been that for may years.
Yes,if she stayed with you you would loose your single persons discount.
There are NO stupid questions,only the unasked ones.It does my heart good to know (in these uncertain day) that someone cares enough to ask for a friend.
If you have any more points you want to discuss just fire away!
Please don't let it get you down too much.
ALL that was missing was~"As I said before I hope (with a friend like you) that she can be persuaded that staying in SA is her safest option"
Yes her age (regarding employment) is against her,as you know most (but not all) women in the UK retire at 60;and of course she will not be in receipt of a pension.
Even assuming she could get a teaching(supply?) job,teaching methods and manners are vastly different to SA.
I get the feeling that she thinks the UK is "the promised land",sadly it hasn't been that for may years.
Yes,if she stayed with you you would loose your single persons discount.
There are NO stupid questions,only the unasked ones.It does my heart good to know (in these uncertain day) that someone cares enough to ask for a friend.
If you have any more points you want to discuss just fire away!
Please don't let it get you down too much.
Thank you very much Mr Veritas. Very kind words.
I believe you are correct in that the UK seemed to be the Ideal answer to her problems. It is, I believe, beginning to sink in that it is anything but.
Never- the- less she seems determined to come back. As she keeps pointing out she has NO friends and very few acquaintances due to their nomadic lifestyle (her husbands job) over the years.
I now believe I should just point out the difficulties she will face but also stand by her and if need be, put her up. Although I will keep quiet about that last point, as if she believes that finding somewhere to live will be almost impossible, it just might be enough to convince her to stay and make another life for herself in SA.
Many thanks again for your kindness.
I believe you are correct in that the UK seemed to be the Ideal answer to her problems. It is, I believe, beginning to sink in that it is anything but.
Never- the- less she seems determined to come back. As she keeps pointing out she has NO friends and very few acquaintances due to their nomadic lifestyle (her husbands job) over the years.
I now believe I should just point out the difficulties she will face but also stand by her and if need be, put her up. Although I will keep quiet about that last point, as if she believes that finding somewhere to live will be almost impossible, it just might be enough to convince her to stay and make another life for herself in SA.
Many thanks again for your kindness.
Well, I think (between us) we have exhausted all possible permutations/avenus for your friend.
As I said before,I just hope she finds what she wants,and that it also gives her the peace of mind that seems to be seeking.
Maybe a sort time (hopefully) living with you in the UK may convince her that really she is better off in SA?
A sort of "short,sharp shock" as it were.We all have times when we feel that grass is green somewhere else,only to wake up to the fact that reall it isn't and that the same problems affect life everywhere.
I DO feel sorry for because she is like a boast cast adrift with no skipper.She is trying to get a skipper without realising that she has to steer the boat!
When and if she sorts herself out,I would be pleased to hear what she has decided,and how you(both) are getting on.
Good Luck,I shall be thinking of you.
As I said before,I just hope she finds what she wants,and that it also gives her the peace of mind that seems to be seeking.
Maybe a sort time (hopefully) living with you in the UK may convince her that really she is better off in SA?
A sort of "short,sharp shock" as it were.We all have times when we feel that grass is green somewhere else,only to wake up to the fact that reall it isn't and that the same problems affect life everywhere.
I DO feel sorry for because she is like a boast cast adrift with no skipper.She is trying to get a skipper without realising that she has to steer the boat!
When and if she sorts herself out,I would be pleased to hear what she has decided,and how you(both) are getting on.
Good Luck,I shall be thinking of you.
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