Listener 4141 : Trailblazers by Dysart

[starwalker]

Grid fill is proceding quite quickly and smoothly, especially when compared to last week.
However, I know that this will rapidly slow down as I know nothing about either the two adversaries or the title. More reading required.

[Clamzy]

Tristram - I don't wish to argue your point but your post implies you are a setter, or at least have access to setters' rules for the Listener.
We lesser mortals know little or nothing of these technicalities and speak as we find, as in my comment above.

[tristram37]

Actually I enjoyed the puzzle, but I feel for those with no internet available who would, I think have been disadvantaged. Actually the vetters' rules are set out in the Listener website, available to all, not just setters.

[Zabadak]

Belated thanks to Clamzy and Dr B for emails that brought me full understanding and a d'oh moment.
There is no way I could have solved this without internet access: I'd have got one of the protagonists, but only a stab at the other and a ghost of a chance with the third named individual. No chance at all with the transformation, particularly as it required close reading of the text (not in even my extensive library) and wasn't revealed even in Wiki's extensive summery.
However, I do remember in the good old days, when stuck on this sort of puzzle, resorting to the local library to try to find the source, usually met by "funny, you're the fourth person to ask that today". We weren't trying to finish on Friday night then - indeed had to wait the unconscionably long hours until the hard copy dropped onto the doormat in the morning. But we were happy!

[serpentinew]

Tristram - I'm certainly in agreement that, in my opinion, this would not have passed the listener submission rules. The content would certainly fall under "cult" in my book. It does n't detract too much from the puzzle, but to have to read the text to derive the final step is quite a liberty. Several years ago Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the moon" theme, drew criticism for a similar reason, though I suspect many more people have been exposed to Pink Floyd than some text that began life in a Saturday paper! Would "Our Wullie" be an acceptable theme? Apologies to any "fans" of the author, but its not something I would have chosen to read - but then I'm from north of Watford and it was n't till I went to university that I began to appreciate the diversity/ great divide in this country. Apologies for the rant but the choice ot the theme reeks of public school tosh.

[Philoctetes]

Sorry, Serpent, but you are threatening the whole idea of themed puzzles. I am a northerner, grammar school educated, but I had a fair understanding of the theme. Not everyone can know about everything. I rely on the internet for Pink Floyd and science, but not for Beethoven or Greek Literature (which comes up all too infrequently, IMHO). Where do we set the boundaries of obscurity? If we are to be restricted to a received canon, which, say, 80% of readers would know, then that severely limits the themes available. Part of the joy of the Listener is in trampling into new fields - while there are still libraries open, those fields should be as far-flung as they can be!

[tristram37]

I think the answer lies in the increasing reliance on rules. I can remember years ago (1991 actually, definitely pre-internet for me)) spending every lunch hour for a week searching libraries for a full volume of The Ingoldsby Legends, the basis of a lovely puzzle by Mr Lemon called The Golbyd's Toes. Not all sets (including my own) had the full 4 parts. But there were no rules then. Every puzzle was judged on its merits, and there was one vetter even longer ago who didn't actually solve the puzzles from scratch, as today's do. But if the vetters have taken the trouble to cast a set of rules I think they should stick to them. The possible range of subjects is still pretty considerable.

[serpentinew]

Philocetes, I'm all for expanding the boundaries of knowledge and whilst my knowledge is skewed to the scientific, I can't recall any recent Listener theme that required anything above a basic grasp of any of science's constituent subjects. Yes, the "Trailblazer" was known to me, though not the detail of the tale. However, to find the level of detail required to complete the puzzle, I read the text, which was not, lets say, something I would choose to do again - not a literary classic, to my eyes anyway.
Now the internet, then themes are easier to track down and have taken some of the fun away from - flicking through the reference section and seeing what other random information one picks up is a thing of the past. Though, having said that, our new central library is book-light and computer-heavy
The Listener has created rules to constrain its puzzles, which I would certainly argue against, but with those in place I really think it should follow them. There are times when I do think that the puzzle that is regarded as the pinnacle of the published puzzle would benefit from a return to a more liberal attitude to its puzzles, where failure is more common. Apologies, for my criticism, it was certainly not provoked by the clueing or construction of the puzzle, just my reaction to reading, what I consider to be, a poor piece of empire-esque prose. Give me Euripides, accompanied by Beethoven anyday.

[Eril]

For those who wish to try something with an even more definite Internet-research-required bias (or have finished this one) I will repeat Clamzy's link from last(?) week (but without the full stop!) http://www.crossword.org.uk/longbow.html
Haven't sussed the final step in it as yet.
P.S. did like this Listener, though the final step too was a challenge (albeit a fair and clever one)

[Deviant]

Quite enjoyed this one. I have one letter in the answers to get (32A first letter), though if my assumption about the transformation is correct, then there's only one possible answer, even if I don't follow the wordplay. I'd have expected the 5 letters to be a specific shape.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, I have to agree with Tristram37 in the context of the above debate. Northern Grammar School educated and, at the moment, a long way from any English language library, there is no way I could have completed this without access to the Internet. Having a vague familiarity with the adversaries is quite a long way away from having the detailed plot knowledge required for this puzzle. (I think that gives nothing away.)

[Clamzy]

Thanks Eril. That explains why my link didn't work. I just couldn't figure it out as I had copy and pasted it so no typo, but will watch out for full stops in future.
Can I repeat the exhortation for all to have a shot at that puzzle and send in an entry.
It's easier than the Listener and a better chance of winning.

[JCVW1]

Tristram/Serpentine, I have enjoyed the puzzle so far, without quite getting to the end. Personally, I think an unknown theme adds to the challenge. Yes, the internet provides an avenue that some may not have access to, but in this age is it not akin to the library? I agree that rules should be adhered to, but maybe the rules are somewhat outdated? For the record, I'm reasonably good on Greek mythology, but know nothing about classical music. Also quite good on Pink Floyd!

[dr b]

I believe that if one were to walk into a typical library here in the US and request information relating to the theme, the librarian would immediately direct you to the Internet-connected PCs that take up an increasingly large amount of floor space in said libraries.

I would also argue it's time to update the rules.

[JCVW1]

That's a good point dr b. I should also add that I wouldn't have got as far as I am with the puzzle without the internet, having no prior knowledge of the theme. I'm not sure I'd have bothered to physically visit the library, to be honest...

[pushmi-pullyu]

I got the adversaries very early on, and was staying at my mother's over the weekend where there was a copy of the original which made it easy to check the details. But I haven't cracked the 7-letter sequence yet.
Zabadak, I'm so glad to hear all is going well.

[contendo]

I don't know why everyone keeps going on about having to go to the library. No library in this area has stocked books by this author for years. If it wasn't written in the last 20 years it's not on the shelves.

[Antmark]

With a bit of effort the relevant work can be found online. A scan read will "lead" to the relevant transformation.

[Patch49]

Thanks for the link to the longbow puzzle which I found much easier and have sent in.

[Zabadak]

Contendo: You are of course, quite right. The libraries I cited were in another age altogether, when computers were vast collections of paper tape, mysteries and diodes locking in dust free rooms, librarians were themselves reservoirs of arcane knowledge, and where books were the only resource they carried. You usually ended up going upstairs to the reference section. Happy days!

[bobbycollins]

Add me to the Northern Grammar School brigade.

Can't get the final step from t'internet and have ordered the complete short stories from Amazon (£1.99).

CJ - are you following this?