listener 4145

[bobbycollins]

I posted a perfectly polite notice on the Times website creating a discussion about this week's puzzle - along the lines of:

"I am getting a bit fed up with the preponderance of cartes blanches, this one doesn't even have clue lengths. At least last week's was relatively straightforward"

Philoctetes posted in agreement. To my amazement both posts have been deleted. It's not like I tapped their phone or anything!! I feel like I am in a Police State.

[Paula]

Really struggling with this - I think Ruth-Robin has also sold me a car!!

[tilbee]

Normally never log into this thread until at least have completed grid fill. Took one look at this however and thought aargh, so looked here to at least get some hope this was accessible. Now I have the keys to RuthRobin's car am one hour in - 12 clues cold solved to date and waiting for some sort of pattern to emerge.

[bobbycollins]

The following from the Times Listener discussion forum may be of interest.....

john larkin

Posts: 7

RE: Times Listener - 4145

posted 08/07/11 18:19

Why has a perfectly innocent and polite comment been removed?


bannman

Posts: 100

RE: Times Listener - 4145

posted 08/07/11 19:29

Your comment was removed because it threatened to open a discussion on a current puzzle. Not because it was deemed impolite.



john larkin

Posts: 7

RE: Times Listener - 4145

posted 09/07/11 18:34

Ah, I see. So you've had the Listener Police on your back then?

[dr b]

Well, I can report that it's doable, but not that it was any fun. I set up the 15x15 in Excel and took a few wild stabs at getting started, one of which finally clicked. With a day or two's reflection I might decide the end result was worth the trouble, but am not in the mood to make that judgment just yet.

[u10]

I think that the crucial information (that I have not yet deduced) is the order of the clues. I still have a blank grid even though I have solved over half them. Too much cold solving for me.

[IainGrace]

Been playing catch up since hols. Just finishing 4144. Having looked at the rubric for 4145 and seen comments here, think we have now caught up since this one doesn't look worth the effort. Looks ridiculously difficult to the point of being tedious, pace RuthRobin.

[TheBear69]

I am not sure whether I found it 'fun', but I certainly found it worthy of my time and effort. I think way the symmetry worked was ingenious. I also appreciated the additional challenge the lack of enumerations provided. Judged strictly on it's own merits, I think it is an excellent puzzle. It will (unfairly) be judged negatively because of all the other cartes blanches that have appeared recently.

[tilbee]

TB69/RR/Dr B/whoever has solved this,

Just back from a nice meal this evening, and now want advice on whether this is worth spending time on tomorrow. Have cold solved most of the clues, have the work 'in another genre', creator, assumed two creations, occasion, and have a suspicion about the form of the final grid entry.

Do I just need a single further PDM which will allow me to slot everything into place, or will this be a grind to the finish ? If the latter I may just go out for another nice meal tomorrow and enjoy the summer whilst we still have it l

[TheBear69]

Tilbee:

You can probably tell from my last message that I think it is worth spending time. It sounds like you've already done most of the work anyway and are at the jigsaw phase. Once you find a few pieces that fit together correctly it will probably come together quickly; the symmetry of the bottom 2/3 helps quite a bit.

[trux]

IMHO, it is worth pursuing - and there is a logic to the clue ordering (and note in pre-ramble was perhaps unnecessarily unhellpful). Some very neat clue constructions, even if one or two somewhat iffy definitions and some (perhaps deliberate) ambiguities re the misprints. But a very clever grid construction and much of great merit, and a fitting tribute to one of my schoolboy favourites. Many thanks, Phi, for another considerable challenge.

[IainGrace]

Re 4144 stuck on the divided cell. If it is not giving too much away, is one dividing horizontally, vertically or diagonally? Got the rest of it including the superb final grid pattern. Marvellous job by Shackleton.

[contendo]

IainGrace - If you've understood the final grid pattern it should be obvious which way you divide the cell.

[IainGrace]

Yes, just got it. Thanks, Contendo.

[magichour]

I am really struggling with this one and agree with previous comments that there are too many variables in play. Having to cold solve most of a puzzle before entering any answers is rarely fun, especially when there are no answer lengths or indication how many misprints there are.

Being busy with visitors this weekend, I have had very little time to tackle this and have cold solved only 5 clues, so I may decide there are better things to do...

[pushmi-pullyu]

I keep deciding I have better things to do, and then coming back to worry at it like a sore tooth. With only one new answer since yesterday, I can't see myself finishing this.

[dr b]

To those soldiering on, you will ooh and aah at the construction once finished, but I too feel the preamble could have been clearer about the clues without giving anything thematic away. I agree that enumerations need to be withheld but there seemed to be an element of difficulty just for the sake of being difficult here.

I think I feel about this puzzle the way I feel after a long hike - glad I'm done but wondering what the heck I was thinking to even get started. And then after a week I only remember the good parts.

[TheBear69]

While I agree that the preamble could have been clearer about the ordering of the clues and not so 'weird' about the significance of the numbering, I am sure there was a deliberate decision to make this one as free from helpful info as possible without rendering it unsolvable. It's the Listener - it's supposed to be devilishly tough, at least on occasion.

As an aside, I never understood why there is a Listener setter's rule that enumerations for letters latent clues must be given. Giving the enumerations invariable makes the puzzle easier; if you want to increase the difficulty level, why should the rules stop you?

[JCVW1]

BC, sorry to hear about the censoring. Personally, after asking for help on a previous carte blanche on this site, and subsequently being able to demonstrate that they possible, I started to look forward to them - espescially after last weeks success. This one seems to have raised the bar, however! I've cold-solved a few clues, and will struggle on. I'll echo others in saying that I can't see myself finishing this though...

[JCVW1]

BC, sorry to hear about the censoring. Personally, having asked for help on a previous carte blanche on this site, and being able to demonstrate that they are possible, especially after success last week, I was starting to look forward to these. However, this one seems to have raised the bar! I've cold-solved a few, but with no obvious entry point I assume you have to get them all before filling the grid? Yes, these seem to be the fashion at the moment - part of me is looking forward to the time when it passes...JW.

[JCVW1]

sorry about the duplication...