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listener 4145
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I posted a perfectly polite notice on the Times website creating a discussion about this week's puzzle - along the lines of:
"I am getting a bit fed up with the preponderance of cartes blanches, this one doesn't even have clue lengths. At least last week's was relatively straightforward"
Philoctetes posted in agreement. To my amazement both posts have been deleted. It's not like I tapped their phone or anything!! I feel like I am in a Police State.
"I am getting a bit fed up with the preponderance of cartes blanches, this one doesn't even have clue lengths. At least last week's was relatively straightforward"
Philoctetes posted in agreement. To my amazement both posts have been deleted. It's not like I tapped their phone or anything!! I feel like I am in a Police State.
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I think I have answers to all clues (though I'm blowed if I can understand 3). However, I was held up for a long time by having an alternative and defensible (just) answer to one of those in the top third, And, because "Not all cells are used" and there is no symmetry in that area, I could justifiably have put that answer in any of four positions without actually spoiling the endgame. In fact, in one position it could have been justified thematically. This is why, IMHO, the vagueness of the preamble, thematic though it may well be, is just too vague to be fully acceptable.For once, I suspect Phi is showing he is clever enough to know that he is clever
"I strongly disagree with Staurologist. I, for one, appreciate the Phi and/or the editors adding to the challenge."
I don't think the preamble was intended to make things more difficult. The point made in the preamble about the clue numbering is surely that, without enumerations as well, one might not be sure where one clue ended and the next began. Unfortunately the effect of that information I think was to add to uncertainty elsewhere.
No complaints from me about the theme. I don't do any other puzzles so I didn't feel any sense of deja vu or overkill
I don't think the preamble was intended to make things more difficult. The point made in the preamble about the clue numbering is surely that, without enumerations as well, one might not be sure where one clue ended and the next began. Unfortunately the effect of that information I think was to add to uncertainty elsewhere.
No complaints from me about the theme. I don't do any other puzzles so I didn't feel any sense of deja vu or overkill
"The numbers have no significance other than to make clear the divisions between individual clues." is plain wrong as the numbers have a significance in that they portray the clue order
Not so: the order of the clues, surely, reflects the order of the clues (!). I always assume the clues are in the right order unless told otherwise.
The point about the numbers is that they do not refer to grid positions.
I agree that it was an unsettling misusnderstanding, and that the instruction could have been unintentionally misleading
Not so: the order of the clues, surely, reflects the order of the clues (!). I always assume the clues are in the right order unless told otherwise.
The point about the numbers is that they do not refer to grid positions.
I agree that it was an unsettling misusnderstanding, and that the instruction could have been unintentionally misleading
Finally, finally finished largely thanks to Staurologist's confirmation about the clues order etc. As a very old hand at the Listener I have to say I am really disappointed with what has gone on here. A blatantly misleading or very poorly phrased preamble relating to the numbering which a good editor would have whipped straight out not least because the rest iof it was hard enough, to wit difficult clues to solve cold not least becasue of some appalling, yes appalling clueing. "3" has been mentioned on a number of occasions and I agree completely...I still haven't worked "1" out. "4" has a superfluous word in it, the definition in 42 is questionable, ditto 43.
Yes we like tough puzzles and this is clever though the theme is possibly not that new, but let's call a spade a spade here...too much bad clueing and a deliberately confusing preamble do not make for happiness and I think everyone on here has expressed that to an extent.....and like many of you another carte blanche this side of 2012 would not be welcome..
Yes we like tough puzzles and this is clever though the theme is possibly not that new, but let's call a spade a spade here...too much bad clueing and a deliberately confusing preamble do not make for happiness and I think everyone on here has expressed that to an extent.....and like many of you another carte blanche this side of 2012 would not be welcome..
The preamble is perfectly fair and perfectly accurate. It may be unintentionally misleading, but I doubt very much that it is intentionally so. How can you know that it is?
Clue 1 seems one of the more straightforward ones.
What is wrong with clue 3? Seems ok to me.
4 does have a superfluous word which threw me for a while.
The defs in 42 and 43 are fine surely??
Clue 1 seems one of the more straightforward ones.
What is wrong with clue 3? Seems ok to me.
4 does have a superfluous word which threw me for a while.
The defs in 42 and 43 are fine surely??
I've been working solidly on this for 10 days! Solved 34 of 39 clues (87%) but still can't enter a single answer with confidence, which doesn't seem right somehow. I've got the thematic creator and I know the occasion so I can guess at the creations. But I can't see any symmetry in the clue answer lengths. I guess that 2 long answers which are next to each other lie in rows 5&6 of the bottom 2/3 although I can't see why there would be 7 possibilities (either 3 with pure symmetry or 9 without). I would really appreciate a nudge here from some kind soul!
My answer lengths are:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
4 ? 4 3 4 3 11 ? 9 10 7 ? 9 9 6 7 10 9 4 ? 9 ?
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43
5 10? 4 13 13 ? ? 6 10 6 4 10 4 8 6 6 6 6 3 4 4
Many thanks
Bill
[email protected]
My answer lengths are:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
4 ? 4 3 4 3 11 ? 9 10 7 ? 9 9 6 7 10 9 4 ? 9 ?
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43
5 10? 4 13 13 ? ? 6 10 6 4 10 4 8 6 6 6 6 3 4 4
Many thanks
Bill
[email protected]
"ichkeria...what on earth would have been the problem with "clues are presented in the normal order".
No, nothing, I agree! That is what it probably ought to have said. But the numbers were put in, I'd imagine, simply because there were no enumerations. Which led to a potential misunderstanding. I still say the preamble was fair though. It just could have been worded slightly better.
No, nothing, I agree! That is what it probably ought to have said. But the numbers were put in, I'd imagine, simply because there were no enumerations. Which led to a potential misunderstanding. I still say the preamble was fair though. It just could have been worded slightly better.
I've just started getting back into Listeners after a two year hiatus, beginning with this weeks puzzle by my almost namesake, Waterloo, and reading the threads here on last week's brain mangler (No 4145) has peaked my curiosity into giving it a go, foolishly or not. I like a challenge and your comments have made me wish I'd started a week sooner. I know I may be a glutton for punishment but that's just me. I know it's too late to submit the puzzle but this is just to see what all the fuss is about and to give it a damn good go. Does anyone have a copy of this monster they could send to [email protected] ?
It would be most appreciated.
It would be most appreciated.
Well I am on theBear's side of the debate. Yes it was difficult - being away had just the BRB and internet to help, though they proved enough to finish. Agreed, the preamble was a bit too vague, but using the rule 'don't assume too LITTLE' meant the grid was fillable. The hardest part was finding the other work (due to misprints/mischoices in the list of misprints...).
Clamzy - no software, spreadsheet or hints, my method for these is to write out each answer on a strip of paper and play jigsaws. Given all the moans here, it is worth pointing out that (again - as in last week's) the long answers were numerous enough and placed effectively so that the 'skeleton' of the crossword could be deduced. Then it builds well, and suddenly there are letters for those unsolved clues, which then picks up the pace.
So THANKS PHI - if your are reading, enjoyed it and not as difficult as that knight's moves one by your colleague (where the solution bogged down rather than speeding up)
Clamzy - no software, spreadsheet or hints, my method for these is to write out each answer on a strip of paper and play jigsaws. Given all the moans here, it is worth pointing out that (again - as in last week's) the long answers were numerous enough and placed effectively so that the 'skeleton' of the crossword could be deduced. Then it builds well, and suddenly there are letters for those unsolved clues, which then picks up the pace.
So THANKS PHI - if your are reading, enjoyed it and not as difficult as that knight's moves one by your colleague (where the solution bogged down rather than speeding up)
Managed this one in small stages - my brain doesn't want to work too long these days. Thought that I would never get through and had basically given up. Wednesday teatime had another look and suddenly brain kicked into gear, and the job was done. Then read of the problems that everyone else had had/were having and felt a bit better. The final jigsaw was fun, but the cold solving was definitely a slog. I'm with those with some objections to the preamble. Loved the final picture. Started 4146 - hoping for a quick finish - we are off on holiday at the weekend.
Coalminers, you're right! What foresight I possess. I'm off to get some lottery tickets.
Seriously though I managed to finish this but that was due to Staurologist's confirmation about clue order and I believe a lack of 'pressure' in starting it after the submission date. Definitely harder than most but I must confess to being a fan of skeleton style grids and I prefer to spend a certain length of time on a puzzle and finish it close to the next one being printed, rather than complete one in a few hours. So thanks Staurologist and to Phi for a great puzzle.
Seriously though I managed to finish this but that was due to Staurologist's confirmation about clue order and I believe a lack of 'pressure' in starting it after the submission date. Definitely harder than most but I must confess to being a fan of skeleton style grids and I prefer to spend a certain length of time on a puzzle and finish it close to the next one being printed, rather than complete one in a few hours. So thanks Staurologist and to Phi for a great puzzle.
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