Saturday Times The Listener 4195 Sum by Hotspur Saturday June 23rd 2012

[contendo]

Well that wasn't too bad. Now for the bottom half.

[pushmi-pullyu]

Still stuck on 3 clues in SE corner and hope is fading fast. I doubt if even the time-honoured remedy of opening a bottle will help.

[JustinTime]

I agree with Trux, several bits of looseness in the clues, although second ready of one put it firmly back in the OK list. In my case spent longer on the last bit than I did on filling the grid. All in all a good but not great puzzle.

[tilbee]

Doh ! No chance of reversing the result of ths one I guess ?

[emcee]

Finished last night and just gone on to The Listener site to see if there was a correction to the bottom row. Lo and behold, there is! So I'm now much happier about the missing response than I was last night.

Great puzzle, very tough and pleased it's over as I'm pretty busy at the moment.

[Arcticpenguin]

Solved all the clues bar one - 34a. Wordplay indicates one word and definition (with correction) another. Both beginning with same letter !!
Now for the tricky bit.

[AHearer]

I enjoyed this one, and I'm delighted to see this particular commemoration. It took me a while to spot the process, and was pleased when it confirmed my guess at the missing six letters. Given the likelihood of a lucky guess, having to use the process to resolve some of the clashes is a necessary extra step.

[vetuste_ennemi]

This was a delight; thank you to those who urged persistence. The denoumement solved 29D for me (still don't understand that clue) and showed that I'd got a wong spelling in 35A. And I wasn't expecting that particular answer.

[Ruthrobin]

Arcticpenguin - contact me at [email protected] if you are still wondering about that one.

[sunny-dave]

Very Hard Indeed - but ultimately very satisfying too - thanks for a cracking work-out Hotspur.

< tilbee is right (post #21) - grid staring and normal listener techniques did it for me >

[magichour]

Really struggling with this - SW corner is defeating me despite having solved most of its clues (29d still a stumper). Knowing the two word phrase is not helping in the slightest, as every explanation I have read of the topic completely baffles me. Fighting on as I don't want this to be the first total failure of the year...

[BlackHugh]

Finished this morning. Unlike many others I found the grid fill much more difficult than discovering the "process". I'd suggest anyone struggling with it to try a few straightforward experiments and it should emerge (hope that does not offend the AB police :-) ). I studied the "two-word" phrase a bit at college (admittedly a few decades ago now sadly) and I cannot see how the "repeated process" represents an "imitation of its inherent concept".

[AHearer]

I agree, Blackhugh, that the process does not seem to exemplify the inherent concept - although if I try to translate the inherent concept to the base and potential number of states we work in here my head starts to hurt, and I'm prepared to believe almost anything! I've read this posting back to myself, and I think it's sufficiently opaque to keep the AB police off my back!

[word_cross]

All sorted - with the "process" helping verify a couple of answers I wasn't 100% happy with. I felt it was quite a big leap from grid completion to discovering the process - and not one where having found it, it was completely obvious - not really a penny dropping moment, more picking the right penny up off the floor!

[s_pugh]

Really struggling with this one - have answered all the clues (I thought correctly) but when I count the 'jumblies' there seem to be 11 not 10! Is this another flaw in the Times version besides the printed XAXCGN?

[starwalker]

s_pugh - there really are just the ten.

[s_pugh]

Thanks starwalker - I've just realised I'd come up with another option for the woopies which necessitated a further jumbly - all back on track now! Just have to suss the process now ... ;¬(

[silversolver]

Phew, finally got there. Started late on this one and, as others have said, this was extremely tough from start to finish. Hours of grid staring required to see the "process"

[perseverer]

Three days of living up to my name to finally figure out the process. Tremendous admiration for the grid construction, and some excellent clues.
I know the attraction of the Listener is that it goes beyond the idea of simply filling the grid but I do prefer it when the grid fill is the main challenge, and the final step is more fun than challenge.

Incidentally for anyone with several hours to spare, Hotspur's personal website is available at http://coldspur.com/

[magichour]

Still bogged down here. I suspect that I will be admitting defeat as I still have one unsolved clue and thus can't really begin the long grid stare. I thought the 'Judgement Seat' puzzle was the toughest of the year so far but this one makes that look like a walk in the park. Plodding on in the vain hope that inspiration will strike, but not hopeful.

[Alekhine]

By Jingo, this was good.

Late getting here this week, but there seems to be no disgrace in that. I had a fairly quick grid fill, but then didn't find much time to spend on identifying the 'process'. When I did get round to it, I realised what a challenge it was.

I am now in need of some serious counselling.