Listener 4222 - 27 By Mango

[Texasetes]

A very entertaining puzzle which I couldn't put down: a nicely cryptic preamble, some tricky (but fair) clues, an excellent grid and an endgame which had me beaming. The general theme became apparent fairly early on, but pennies dropped until and after the grid was filled.

I have doubts about the precise appearance of the final grid but things will probably resolve themselves when I'm awake.

A great puzzle with which to end the Listener year. Thank you, Mango.

[emcee]

Charpy, this is exactly the problem I've had. I've tussled with the preamble and it remains ambiguous. My call is that the thematic set vanish and the 'solitary' thematic item remains in the grid throughout with the start and finish ringed.

I'm hoping the above is sufficiently vague not to give anything away. After all, it's not specific help I'm giving here but a discussion of the final representation of the grid which could have been made alot clearer from the rubric.

[Charpy]

emcee and tilbee

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately my entry is already in the post, so another wrong'un for me by the sounds of it. It is at least reassuring to know that I'm not alone in spotting the ambiguities in this puzzle. Off to walk off the Xmas excesses for a few days now.

A Happy New Year to all posters on these threads.

[kwyjibo]

The only comment I would make is that the final solution bears no resemblance to reality and one of the thematic elements is in the wrong place.

[TheBear69]

Charpy, the explanation given by the disappearing letters in the clues tell the solvers to do something which is consistent with some of the thematic entries in the grid disappearing as per the rubric. That would suggest movement by the other thematic items except I do not see how one can circle something that is not there! I'm assuming that the final 'juncture' referred to in the rubric is the one occurring after the last disappearance...

A nice finale for the year but the instructions are murky even after one fully deciphers them.

[tilbee]

kwyjibo - understand your point, but at the risk of being pedantic the thematic elements could at this stage actually be anywhere in the grid.

[borealis]

Lovely. Great finish - I only wish I could achieve it for real. No doubt in my mind about what to enter until reading comments here! Enjoyed in particular the non-appearing thematic item. Thank you Mango(es).

A very happy New Year to setters and solvers. Hoping to share your enjoyment here in 2013.

[fallster]

Nice puzzle, and reasonably clear what happens to the thematic items in reality, but I share the disappointment of Charpy et al. about the ambiguity of the instructions.

[fortyseven]

The second consecutive year that Mango's Listener is (a)tough and (b)the final puzzle of the year. This had a sneaky preamble and clever but difficult clues, with only symmetry and the emerging message to speed things up. I particularly liked the across clue beginning "Ravel both..." Then quite a time was spent in staring at the grid waiting for the light to dawn, and finally in reading and re-reading the preamble to try to produce the required final grid. All clear now (fingers crossed). May I wish a happy and peaceful new year to you all.

[Staurologist]

At last my misspent youth has paid off! When I realised what the theme was, I thought that completion would drive me potty, but by taking a decent break (27, to be exact) I was able to follow through, although I did screw up quite a lot on the way. And I certainly agree with Arcticpenguin that English is not needed to solve this puzzle. Although I share the doubts expressed by Charpy et al, I think his final piece of advice is wise. Neat of Mango to manage to fit in the undefined light at 27 dn. A Happy New Year to all from the ski slopes on the Magic Mountain.

[jim360]

I'm not sure the instructions really are that ambiguous. To carry out the instructions in a continuous string, the unique thematic item would need to remain on the grid throughout and not disappear at all. Therefore the other set of thematic items is the only one that need vanish. My only gripes are the dimensions of the grid relative to the thematic equipment required and the somewhat skewed position of the final element, though I suppose it could have been dislodged prior to starting the treatment.

[jim360]

Also the only way to achieve 27 is if the entire thematic set disappears. In the end game they don't stay on the thematic surface and remain disappeared during the 27.

[Coalminers]

Like many others (but not apparently all of you) I am very disappointed that the final crossword of the year (and what would otherwise have been an excellent crossword) should have such ambiguity in the final stages. To me there are at least 3 ways of interpreting the phrase "not even the thematic 27". However, the previous instruction says "must be circled", whereas this instruction says "need be written in". The Technical Terms section of Appendix B in the Notes for Setters stresses the mandatory use of "must" for compulsory actions (admittedly as opposed to "should" not "need"). This, in my mind, gives solvers a get out clause. If we want to, we can include all the bars, all the clue numbers, and even (at least the non-disappearing) thematic elements.

What a shame. Surely JEG will be lenient here?

[scooterbug]

I have ended up with an essentially superfluous "solitary" thematic item. The instructions could be completed with a nearby item along the same lines, which begs the question whether there is a unique solution. The shading provides some comfort as to which item to use, but I don't think the instructions are at all clear whether each shaded cell is required to be used.

Also, my interpretation is that the clause relating to the circles relates to "different ones"; in other words, I assume that the first action has been completed when I place the first circle. Otherwise, as pointed out above, I wouldn't be circling the thematic item, but rather an empty space.

Absent English, I further assume that each successful action is followed by an unsuccessful one, to get the thematic items to their 27. In other words, the process is not continuous, but rather a series of turns. Which, again, is not at all clear from the instructions.

I don't mean to give anything away. I very rarely post, and do so only if I feel like there are ambiguities in the puzzle. I think I've got a defensible solution, but am very frustrated to have lingering doubts.

[jim360]

The only way to achieve the thematic 27 is in a continuous chain of successful actions. It is completely possible to do this given the layout of the relevant items, and one does indeed have to make use of all the shaded cells to achieve this.

The last part of the preamble surely just means that you don't need to put in any bars or numbers anywhere.

[midazolam]

This was a fun enjoyable puzzle, but it is let down slightly by the difference between real life i.e. the true actions required to carry out the disappearances and the preamble requirements. Given we have to circle the start and finish (27) these must be left in the grid (and all in between), but it would be more logical to carry out the 6 actions leaving only the last (27). However, to turn that argument on it's head, they cannot all be there to start with, so it must be fine to leave them all at the end.

The sequence to carry out the disappearance is unambiguous and cleverly worked out. I also liked the added bonus of the missing one from the entire grid.

Thanks Mango, Happy New Year to all and lucky solving for 2013

[JackDeCrow]

I too was a bit cross about the endgame for a while but, I have to say, when I finally worked it through in detail and decided to treat each instance of "where the 27" as a sort of time-lapse photo of where it is before and after each juncture, then I became much happier with it, so have left all of those in and let the others disappear. All very clever, so I hope it doesn't provide a final controversy for the year! Happy New Year to all.

[TheBear69]

Yes, JackDeCrow, that is how I look at it too, but that does not resolve the ambiguity between where the 27 at the next-to-last and last junctures. Either can be used for the coup de grace with the other being the last of the 27. So I would say that either being circled is correct.

[JackDeCrow]

TB69, I think you can only get to one of the possible "next-to-last" positions from the previous "juncture" while fulfilling the instruction "stick to the shaded cells". In this case, "English" would indeed not seem to be allowed!

[Anapice]

Very,very difficult JdC but not impossible methinks. However you are correct in that the solution is unique and that one of TB69s positions would lead to a blockage/collision.

[JackDeCrow]

Hah, I see your point Anapice - and therefore apologies to you, TB69. But that would be one hell of an achievement and likely to lead to some ripping I feel!