Listener 4331 By Loda

[Ruthrobin]

Well, those who have been moaning that the early ones were too easy have what they wanted here. This has been a real challenge, growing easier as it progressed, of course. We still have some ends to tidy up but have enjoyed the challenge. Thank you Loda. (For a real laugh, you should look at the comment on the Listener website on the Stick Insect crossword - it seems somebody managed to get it wrong!)

[olichant]

Loved this. It took a while, but I enjoyed the solve - some really nice clues, and plenty of traps (most, if not all, of which I fell straight into). And a really neat PDM right at the end. Thanks, Loda - a great puzzle.

[EdgeofDarkness]

Jim, I don't think you,ve carefully read what I have already written. Your response amounts to "But we've always done it like this." There are plenty of newer solvers who have been deterred from using AB, and if you contest this I shall find them for you. Many people feel uneasy about releasing e-mail address details to strangers.

I do not wish to be a member of any club. AB is not a club. It is a public forum. Your club has sequestered AB for a use not intended in AB, and attempts to browbeat any AB users who disagree with them. I repeat, if seeing answers would spoil it, then don't come onto AB until you've completed the puzzle.

Why are you so resistant to doing things in a better way ?
Meursault.

[Cagey]

I have often thought that the people smart enough to do the listener, are also going to be the people to spot an oblique reference to the current crossword in a message, even if they have not yet completed that crossword. I have found in the past that some of these references have allowed the theme to be guessed in advance of finishing the grid. I now prefer to visit after I have finished the crossword, but I see no reason to limit this. If I am stuck I would rather wait and look again, then come here and see if there is some obscure / oblique reference that will help, then ask a specific question to a fellow solver, who knows when I should just be thinking harder and tells me so if he thinks required, then finally, and thankfully not for a very long time ask a specific question on the other web site (not in a couple of years).
I think simple politeness dictates where and how you ask these questions, and how you reveal spoilers. Direct spoilers should be avoided, after all this is still a challenge and a competition for many (especially new solvers) rather than a hobby (which for me it now is) and it should really be regarded as such.

[sunny-dave]

Your way is not "better", Meursault - just different.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you starting a separate thread entitled (say) "Listener 4331 - direct help and spoilers".

This would be entirely within the rules of AB and should not be removed by any mods or the editors.

It would allow you to parade your own knowledge in your own inimitable style - whilst allowing the rest of us to continue on our own rather more elliptical way.

Why try to subvert and wreck our threads - does it make you feel big and/or clever?

To me it just reeks of exceptionally sour grapes - surely you can just go your own way and leave us to it?

Dave

[Cagey]

It strikes me that even the pseudonym edge of darkness could be viewed as an oblique hint for 1 of the 8.

[EdgeofDarkness]

Cagey, thank you for your helpful comments. Edge of Darkness comes from a synthesis of some music my Clapton & Kamen (back in the '80s) and something I was reading by Goethe.

[EdgeofDarkness]

"If you are going to participate in this club, then you should respect its rules."
So Jim, where does all of this leave us ?

I'm resigned to share my space on AB, a public forum, with your club (and you have told me that it is a club, with its own rules). I am not required to 'participate' in your club in order to exercise my liberty of expression on AB. For you in particular, I'm happy to share my space. However the sharing with your club on reasonable terms, requires that your club recognises that I am a non-member and governed only by myself and the law of the land. Whatever additional rules your club might have devised for its members are nothing to do with me, and your members should never attempt to impose their rules on me.

The here and now ? Further acrimony might be alleviated by an apology from your club member (Philoctetes) for having wrongly imposed your club rules on me and in doing so gone outwith jurisdiction in removing my comment on 4330.

[EdgeofDarkness]

Sunny Dave,
There is absolutely nothing stopping a club from constructing its own forum, for members only. That way the club can have whatever rules its members agree on and not have to worry about non-members exercising their freedom of expression.

I repeat. AB is a public forum. While your club occupies that space, its members must be tolerant of non-members.
Meursault.

[Philoctetes]

EoD,
Why do you take such offence at there being a set of threads on AB that have their own set of sub-rules? Many, if not most, of the other threads I have dropped in on have similar sets of regulars and their own conventions. If I find them constricting I am free not to revisit them, nor do I deliberately try to annoy the participants by breaking their conventions. This is a mirror of society. I see no need to apologise to you, as I simply reported your post, giving as my reason that, to me, it broke the local conventions of this series of threads. Someone, who has been given the authority to do so, agreed with me and took appropriate action. I would suggest you might try a similar tack - if you think a post is being too oblique for a board named "Answerbank" then report it. Till then it might be better to respect the wishes of a small group of relatively harmless individuals sitting in a darkened corner of the internet being Delphic with each other.

[tramart]

Whether or not it's appropriate for this group to set its own rules, it is decidedly illogical for the Answerbank moderator to delete a posting, on request, because it contravenes said rules. That amounts to censorship. Moderation should surely be about stopping aggressive, racist etc behaviour.
Perhaps it's time we considered moving to a private forum or e-group. And no, I'm not offering to set one up.

[UglyUncle]

Je ne suis pas Meursault.

[EAChaplin]

Tramart - I believe Steve Mann under the guise of Seth Mould set up just such a site last year, for the unrestricted discussion of Listener puzzles before publication of solutions. I went there at the time and found no activity. I don't have a record of the URL.

[emcee]

Je ne suis pas Ruthrobin. Elle est tellement prétentieux.

[Ruthrobin]

And you, Emcee, are downright offensive!

[Ruthrobin]

By the way, your French is rubbish - prétentieuse - at least you sometimes give us a laugh!

[olichant]

Emcee, forgive me if I am speaking out of turn, but that did sound a little unkind and possibly unnecessary?

For my own part, I would hope that we are surely all friends here - at the very least, we all get great pleasure out of the same weird and wonderful crossword each weekend. I can quite understand the differences of opinion relating to the extent to which the content of live puzzles should be expressly be debated on a public forum. For my personal taste, the crossword solver site sometimes goes a bit too far - check the current thread - as much as anything else, it shows how hard it is to ask specific questions without giving away the bigger picture. So I personally very much like the traditional approach on this thread, which has helped me get into the Listener over the last few years.

Either way, though, it would be nice if we could keep the debate, well - nice?

And once more, thanks to Loda - it really was a fab puzzle.

[twoshortplan]

Wow - getting quite heavy here.
Personally I like the restraint shown on this site with just the odd gentle hint, compared to Crosswordsolver where it is "can anyone help with 7, 14 and 19?" and back comes the answers "Bacon, Automobile and Neptune". This is not fair to the setters and especially to Mr Green who ends up marking plagiarized entries.

[Cagey]

Oh poo. I think I have this one wrong. I had none of those three. I had...

[jockie]

At the risk of getting back to the subject - Listener 4331 - I'm mystified by why the editors allow such detailed e-searching (specifically to finding the unclued word along the bottom row). I have all the letters and I know the missing one, but Google produces absolutely nothing. Where is one supposed to turn if such a massive library yields nothing?

[jockie]

Ooooh! I feel so foolish ... Sorry to have maligned my betters.