Listener 4385

[Ruthrobin]

What a delightful compilation. Thank you dragon. We have really enjoyed this.

[olichant]

My first ever PD puzzle. Really clever, and some fantastic cryptic clues along with some very witty PD clues. Took me ages to spot what was going on at the end, but got there eventually.

Thanks, Dragon - hope your pseudonym is a good omen for Welsh rugby at the weekend...

[trux]

Cottoned on quite quickly as to where this was going but still had enormous fun working out all the PD clues. Admirably clever construction by the setter with multiple elements tying together and most enjoyable for the solver. What more can one ask for? Many thanks, Dragon.

[AHearer]

I liked this a lot -- though I seem to have the same difficulty with Printer's Devilry clues as I have with grid-staring. There were some lovely clues. I quit last night after my self-imposed time limit, but soon spotted this morning how my mistaken assumption about 7down was leading me astray. Many thanks, Dragon.

[jim360]

I suppose one could ask for a solvable puzzle...? Not getting along with this one at all. PD clues I've never attempted before but they just annoy me most of the time. How the heck do you even start? Most of the ones I've got are only from working backwards.

At least, after something of a disaster abut forgetting to submit the first puzzle of the year, there's no all-correct on the line for me in 2016, so I can put this one aside without feeling too bad. Sorry, Dragon, but this one I'm inclined to chalk up as a failure on my part. It's been a grind to get as far as I've got and I can't say I fancy the other more than half of the puzzle left to solve.

(Z cup for me, I guess?)

[starwalker]

More haste, less speed with this, as I'm trying to finish it in a hurry so that I can get on with packing for a holiday. Some fine stuff here that is much appreciated. Many thanks Dragon, and I believe that congratulations are also due to AHearer on his latest success.

[upsetter]

Jim, you are right, up to a point.
As others have hinted, the across 'clues' are not really there to be solved but to entertain.
Clue-staring is no more edifying that grid-staring.
Keep going - you will enjoy the moment.

[Ruthrobin]

PD is very special and different but, Jim360, this one is so extremely well set that it really is worth persisting. I think, maybe, that the fun aspect of the entertaining little word puzzles that are PD is more a word-lover's than a crossword-lover's entertainment but the clever incorporation of the theme raises this to (in my opinion) a Listener crossword of a very high quality.

[aldanna]

I can well believe this is really high quality, but it is so hard, and for me, this is just a case of "life is too short". With a fair number of down clues solved and only one across clue, I have given up.

[jim360]

You'll forgive me for pressing the issue, but what is the point of clues whose primary function is actually *not* to be solved? That seems to run entirely against the principle of such puzzles, in that no matter how brilliant their conception, they are puzzles that should be made to be broken. The apparent implication of a couple of posters then is that this style of clue breaks that philosophy.

I gave a talk to a group of fellow students a couple of weeks back about this kind of puzzle, hoping to inspire some to take up the art while conceding that, sadly, the learning curve to solve particularly the hardest of these is too steep for all but those who are committed to the art form. This is at that steep end. I'm sure the finish was brilliant, but I'm evidently not the only one who will never get to see that. Because the journey is just sadistically difficult.

Well done anyone who made it to the end, but ... not for me. Sorry.

[upsetter]

Aldanna, Jim
You have both solved puzzles much harder than this one.
Many of the downs are gimmes. Several, but by no means all, of the acrosses can only really go in one place, and they are all fair.

[jim360]

Difficulty is subjective, I think, although thanks for the encouragement. I might dip back into this at some point but getting as far as I have has been tiring.

[s_pugh]

My first experience of PD too, and after a lucky start with 26ac (which I thought a very clever ‘clue’) managed to justify them all eventually though I thought 38ac was a distinctly dubious answer, gained more from the PD wording than anything else. Very hard work, and I can see why jim360 isn’t enthused – my initial reaction was to give it a swerve. Thanks to Dragon but please don’t rush out another one like this anytime soon ;¬)

[Cagey]

Well that took an exceedingly very long time [bit Charlie and Lola there, sorry]. Like others, my First crack at this type of clue too. If it wasn't for some of the more obvious clues and an almost immediate guessing of theme would never have got there, and still do not get 1 of the Across ones, where a different word seems to fit better. However did enjoy, and very impressed by the cleverness of some of across clues.
Parents around tomorrow, so hopefully ev will be easier than last week, which was great.
Thank you.

[perseverer]

Found this quite tough, though I have done the odd PD puzzle in the past. I also took ages to realise the precise theme.
There is one across PD entry where I think Chambers suggests four words which would fit in the grid and you could make a case for three of them, though only one conforms to the precise pattern show by the other PD answers (and is the "best" match with the clue.)

[Scorpius]

I share Jim's dislike of PD clues, mainly because clues without any definition or wordplay have no appeal to me, and partly because there are usually some ambiguities, as in this puzzle, which have to wait for checkers to resolve. But it's obvious from the positive responses here that they have their devotees, and perhaps if I were better at solving them I might be more of a fan myself.
I did finish, but after a long struggle, and I was often tempted to throw in the towel. I thought a few of the PD clues quite weak, making me doubt my answer, but the majority were excellent.

[olichant]

Just out of interest - is there such a thing as a PD clue with a definition? I know that this would not necessarily be in the spirit of "printer's devilry" (what an odd phrase that is!) but it might meet some folk's objections. There could of course be a reason why this would not work - my brain isn't working very fast today.

[jim360]

I guess it's up to a setter to manage to write something like that. But regardless of my personal gripes variety is the spice of the Listener, and this has certainly provided some variety. Outside the Chambers Crossword Manual I've not seen this before in my four years or so of Listeners.

[perseverer]

Jim you might find some sympathy in this thread

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question926991.html

[petefoxes]

Also my first time trying Printer's Devilry and I hated it at first. Worth it for the end in this case though - very clever.

[Scorpius]

I meant to say earlier that the theme hung together very nicely. I've also gone through the odd clue where I couldn't see exactly how to restore a removed answer that I was sure was right.. It's a delightful moment when the light finally dawns.