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well danny, thank you very much for letting me know. that now explains quite a lot. i also do the daily telegraph and the times as well as the sundays. for some years now i have noticed that some of the clues in the telegraph come up in the daily mail, although with barely disguised differences. i can't say that i have ever noticed a typical times clue in the daily mail. the times are totally different and although sometimes hard to parse, they always do parse perfectly, but you have to work on them! thank you very much again and kind regards