The B M J Is Worried

[sunny-dave]

I'm not a big fan of the BMJ - far too closely aligned to the NHS establishment and not usually the first to raise concerns.

For them to be publishing (and headlining) such direct and hard-hitting criticism of Government Policy is unusual to say the least.

https://tinyurl.com/ya3btjox

"England arrives here in a state of utter confusion"

"Scientists and doctors in advisory positions face a dual obligation to the state and to the public. But what happens when the government’s integrity no longer matches your personal or professional integrity, when your public accountability seems greater than that of the politicians you advise? Do you fight from within? Do you speak out, and even resign? What of the leaders of medical organisations working closely with the government? Regrettably, questions of conscience and duty must now be addressed".

[Zacs-Master]

Only time will tell whether 'England’s decisions seem rooted in a desire to restart the economy rather than an overabundance of science' is the correct route. As well as looking after the nation's health, the Govt has to, in a race-horsing analogy, make sure its runners and riders (a.k.a British Business) are ready to compete with other countries one this is finally over.

As the BMJ says, this could backfire.

An interesting and thought provoking article!

[jim360]

Well, quite. Too much changing too quickly seems like a recipe to create the second wave that the Government was explicitly trying to avoid. Although, that said, very early on they changed the fifth test from "avoid a second wave" to "avoid a second wave that overwhelms the NHS", so maybe the Government is willing to accept an increase in critical care need and death count if the NHS is able to "cope".

[Zacs-Master]

In another point, I completely agree with the comment that 'Second, [Cummings' trip]belittled staff and patients who have risen to complex logistic, clinical and personal challenges while delivering care.'

I wish the journalists had made more of Cummings virtually saying he trusted his 17 year old niece to look after his child rather than go through the proper channels.

[woofgang]

I think that the experts who appear at the briefings have made clear that while the government is led by the medical and scientific advice, its not the only aspect it has to consider. Indeed it seems to me that its something of a luxury in the circs to be able to say "My field is this" and make statements based only on your expertise without having to consider other issues. In the current circs, the BMJ's public accountability doesn't seem to me to be greater than the government's.

[lady-janine]

It would be interesting to have the responses of any medical personnel, senior or not so senior, on reading this article. Have they considered the implications and questions it raises?

[woofgang]

I think its a problem...issue....consideration....that whoever gives a view will only be able to give a view from their place and experience in the process.....and I include in this knowledgeable and experienced people who mean well. medics don't have responsibilities for education or business, business folk of all business sizes don't have responsibilities for health and so on. The government, whatever you think of them, are responsible for the whole shebang. They can say, as they have said, that they will be led by the science but they are using the science to navigate a safe path through all the other issues.

[fiction-factory]

Whilst I feel things are being relaxed too quickly (and people were taking things into their own hands anyway as they'd had enough) I'm comforted by the fact that Professor Jonathan Van Tam seems happy that we are relaxing things at pretty much the right rate. He seems to know his stuff and seems like someone who would say it as he sees it and he takes no nonsense- witness his clear message re Cummings without specifically mentioning him. I think he's rightly cautious though and probably thinks we have relaxed things as much as we can for some time now and we will have to respond quickly to tighten up if necessary

[Peter Pedant]

the fullish text is here

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2102.full

Fiona doo dah - the ed has an eye to keeping afloat and so wants your money before you read her wise words
the ed is by Kamran Abbasi

In fact the govt not listening to their advisers is hardly new
Look at PFI and the labour govt - they just ended up saying " we are gonna do it"

[youngmafbog]

The public have spoken with their feet, enough of this fear and control time to take back our country and stop hiding behind the sofa.

For those that want to hide, fine do so. But dont expect others to pick up the tab for you not contributing to society if you are of working age.

[woofgang]

I don't think the public have spoken with their feet. The idiots who thronged to beaches are a minority, even in their age groups.

[youngmafbog]

Why do you have to resort to name calling?

They are not idiots they can see the figures and for the young it means no problems.

I notice you were quick to mention the beaches but no mention of the protesters for Black lives matter. Are they idiots too because I couldnt see any social distancing going on.

[jno]

the latest opinion poll (two days ago) showed people were happy with lockdown

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/uk-public-still-staying-home-huge-degree-and-even-getting-used-lockdown-life-new-data-reveals

so it may be we're just seeing a lot of selfish clots - the sort ymb usually deplores - reclaiming the streets. Lockdowns make strange bedfellows.

[youngmafbog]

BTW, if you actually bothered to go to the beaches you would see the majority keeping their distance. Dont believe a phot where the photographer uses a telephoto lens to make people seem closer.

I've been to see it and before you start I can walk to the beach so why shouldnt I?

[youngmafbog]

More name calling from jno.

What a surprise.

[jno]

well, you tell me what you think of the Black lives protesters? You're not usually a fan.

I have been looking at photos closely and agree with much that you say about telephoto lenses. But it's pretty clear from eg the Dorset photos yesterday (which were taken from high up) that although people weren't shoulder to shoulder, except when the helicopter landed, most were less than 2 metres apart. I know European countries have settled for one metre apart and they may be right; still, the instruction here is for twice that.

[woofgang]

I know people who live in Dorset and Cornwall, they know what some of the beaches have been like and the filth that has been left behind including human excrement because the toilets weren't open. Durdle Door was closed yesterday and people were moving the closed signs to drive down there. I said idiots and I meant idiots, I bet the emergency services have called them worse.

[10ClarionSt]

If you're ok with the lockdown, then it has not affected you in any way. You're happy to be 'had over' by the govt.