Listener 3993

[cruciverbali]

Today's challenge is Argentum by Radix. I'm off camping now, so lets hope the rainclouds in the Lakes have a silver lining too !

[Mysterons]

........... or, in each pair of clues (one 'odd' and one normal), the answer can be permuted, in the case of the former from the wordplay, and the latter from a string of letters, which then Playfair-encode back to the answer.

[Cruncher]

Thanks eddery for encouragement on 1ac.

I think I understand Mysterons' posts and think I'm working along the same lines. Four dodgy clues, two of one answer length, two of another, and presume that in each pair of clues of like answer length the wordplay answer of one is the encoded version of the definition answer in the other and vice versa. But, if so, unless my various answers are incorrect I either have one pair of letters that codes to two different letter pairs or one letter that codes to itself which I reckon is impossible in a Playfair square. Hmmm...

Temperature today a disappointing 43C

[eddery]

Still trying to work it through .. and again, I think I'm working along the same lines as Cruncher & Mysterons - which I think is that the 'eight one-word answers' referred to in the preamble are the two 'answers' to each of just four clues. Maybe spiderFreak could confirm?
Still some way to go to divine the code though.

[Mysterons]

Not quite guys, sorry if my last posting was a bit confusing.

4 clues give rise to wordplay (entered in the grid) different (in a special way) from the word defined. The relationship between the two words in each case defines the permutation to be applied to a different clue answer (placed symmetrically opposite in the grid). Radix has devised a Playfair code square which enables the permuted answer to the normal clue to be the encoded version of the unpermuted answer to the same clue!

The 4 letter words which also appear encoded in the final grid are all possible meanings of a significant part of the Playfair key.

Hope this is clearer !!

[spiderFreak]

Sorry eddery, I was offline there for a while. Yes, Mysterons has said it all, and I could see how close his post last night was, so I didn't intervene.
The title is also another example (via its anagram).

[bobbycollins]

That is stunning.

I too had all of the clued entries, but was facing a brick wall until the hints here pushed me a bit further on. Sadly I couldn't get there under my own steam and had to enlist the aid of a very clever friend.

Brilliant puzzle, Radix.

[cruciverbali]

Let's not beat about the bush, plainly stated this was a puzzle of sheer genius, by far the best Listener so far this year - Radix gets my vote for the AGC, and if this one doesn't finish top three I shall eat my tent. Bravo FXNG !!

[eddery]

Mysterons & spiderFreak, many thanks for your help.

Astoundingly, I think I had blundered into the 'right' answer about 24 hours ago, but rejected it as (i) I could not fathom a link between the four 4 letter words I had arrived at - now verified in Chambers thanks to your post M. (ii) I did not like the way my two longer words only used the top 2 rows of my Playfair grid to encode and (iii) one of my shorter words - the down one - did not encode to my permuted version (though I ended up with an anagram thereof).

I still have that third problem, so I am probably not permuting that word in the right 'special way' first - I'm just rearranging letters in exactly the same order as the move from wordplay answer to definition answer in its counterpart.

Guess there is always a chance I have constructed my Playfair wrongly, but it works perfectly for all other aspects.
Time to check things again - frustrating when you think you have a correct solution but can't quite justify it 100%

Otherwise agreed, an exceptional puzzle, well done Radix.

[Mysterons]

Thank you eddery, sounds like you have done all the hard work now, and your grid-fill must be correct. Perhaps this might help resolve the third problem ?

[Mysterons]

.............. I should also mention that the permutation is in the opposite direction for this pair, ie from defined answer to wordplay, perhaps the only weakness in a fantastic Playfair puzzle ?

[eddery]

Ah Mysterons, thank you - I was obviously expecting total perfection in such a great puzzle. Never occureed to me that the permutation would in that instance work in the opposite direction.
I did have everything in the right place - thank you for helping me to confirm it!

[jamesah]

Well I've read the above and remain baffled. I need bobbycollins' friend I think. All the clues seem to me to lead to normal solutions. There are a couple I don't understand (like 3 down, what does 11 refer to?). Oh well, I'll have to wait for the solution and hope to understand Gregson's explanation. I am incredibly impressed by those who made sense of it all.

[gribble]

jamesah
if you look up in chambers the last letter of 3d you will see what 11 refers to
haven't completed final stage ,the above hints should help but am finding it very confusing

[cluelessJoe]

Sorry Scorpius, I was posting at the same time as you and ended up pushing the same site! Clearly you found it as invaluable as I (and it does a whole lot more besides!)

[sinkingfast]

Yes - if one knew the keyword? How do we deduce that? Hours of puzzling for me this week.

[Scorpius]

It's a small point, but I don't agree with Mysterons that the encoding of one of the pairs works in the opposite direction. It's an unusual feature of one of the less straightforwardly permuted thematic words that it works both ways, i.e., if you number the positions and then permute you'll get the same number whichever way you operate (def.-entry or entry-def). The other one of similar length only works in one direction, though it can work with two different keywords. I'm pretty certain that everything works in the same direction, and there are no inconsistencies.

[Cruncher]

Well all my careful negotiation with 63 Green Lane to allow a late submission so as to try and maintain an unbeaten run was quite unnecessary - without your explicit hints I wouldn't have cracked this one I know. I blame the heat.

But, unless the heat has completely addled my cerebrum I think there is no inconsistency and that all four paired clues work by permuting in the same direction - ie from defined answer to grid entry - as it makes no difference which way round you permute the other three. So no brownie points lost there for Mr Radix. Great puzzle.

[Mysterons]

I can have no argument with that Cruncher, thanks for the clarification.