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Listener 3993
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Today's challenge is Argentum by Radix. I'm off camping now, so lets hope the rainclouds in the Lakes have a silver lining too !
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how anyone got the keyword to construct the playfair grid without a playfair breaker is beyond me (sinkingfast). However I concur with all the above - a well mastered puzzle (I must admit I didnt read the preamble properly at first and started using Radix's example grid and thought there was something wrong!). Sorry Cruciverbalist not the AGC for me but a close shave!
It is very difficult to explain how solving this works and so i could not make head nor tail of all the above hints. I was driving to work this morning and it suddenly hit me and placing the altered and unaltered opposite entries into the breaker site gave me the keyword
i predicted in last weeks thread that we might have a stinker this week!
It is very difficult to explain how solving this works and so i could not make head nor tail of all the above hints. I was driving to work this morning and it suddenly hit me and placing the altered and unaltered opposite entries into the breaker site gave me the keyword
i predicted in last weeks thread that we might have a stinker this week!
Actually the 9 available pairs of digraphs are all at the corners of rectangles, as opposed to being in the same rows or columns - this is a lot of information for solving a Playfair code square, and it soon becomes apparent, for example, that 5 letters (which turn out to be on the second row) are on the same row. The correct order isn't difficult to guess, and logic then suggests which row this could be. It's then a short step to the entire Playfair key.
I'm pretty confident I won't be needing a new tent next year !
I'm pretty confident I won't be needing a new tent next year !
I want to say thanks to all who have provided hints for this puzzle. As usual with the Listener I filled in the grid but the final step just seemed to elude me. I knew there were four clues with definitions not quite right but couldn't get any further. Using the hints and the Playfair breaker I've worked out the keyword I think. And I'm now just doing the last bit. Who knows the hours and days of my life that would be wasted if it weren't for the compassionate bodhisattvas here!
I'd like to give my thanks also to all those who so brilliantly nudged me down the right road without giving too much away. The end was still a journey but one I always felt was attainable, and still a personally satisfying one even with the hints. When it all slotted into place it felt like a stubborn boil had finally burst! I'm off to lie in a darkened room now with some damp flannels.
Thanks to Gribble for his comment. I thought that I had worked out the 4 words with dodgy clues but am still having problems. Are the permuted associated words encoded versions of the actual grid entries or of the permuted grid entries? Concerning the two longer words, both my associated words end in the same pair of letters. If these are in code there should be a matching pair of letters in each of the grid entries, but there isn't! What have I done wrong?
As James May once said to Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear, I am unspeakably outraged.
As a Listener setter and solver, I don't seek out this site in order to cheat and to spoil my own solving experience. However, the actions of those that do use this site do impact in a massive way on those of us who prefer to solve puzzles under our own steam.
Every time that somebody gets an answer from a clever friend, posts solutions or hints, or points other users of the site towards the solution, it serves to diminish the achievements of those of us who are not either too stupid or too lazy to solve the puzzles on our own, or to persevere when we are stuck.
If you don't know the answer, or can't fathom a puzzle's denouement, then either stick with it until you do, or accept that you can't get a particular puzzle correct and, when the solution is published, read it and learn. That way, you'll actually improve as a solver to the point that you can get the majority (or indeed all) of the puzzles correct, rather than continuingly relying on others to help you over the line.
People who seek help on this site for puzzles, especially the Listener, the most challenging crossword series in the world, are no better than athletes who take drugs to enhance their own performance - and those who willingly supply the answers are no better than those who supply those drugs.
For pity's sake, learn to achieve things under your own steam, and accept that sometimes you don't succeed. Radix, a good friend, will have spent untold hours concocting this puzzle. The cheating that goes on here both diminishes his achievement in constructing the puzzle, as well as the achievement of those of us who spent hours wrestling to bring the puzzle to a successful conclusion.
As a Listener setter and solver, I don't seek out this site in order to cheat and to spoil my own solving experience. However, the actions of those that do use this site do impact in a massive way on those of us who prefer to solve puzzles under our own steam.
Every time that somebody gets an answer from a clever friend, posts solutions or hints, or points other users of the site towards the solution, it serves to diminish the achievements of those of us who are not either too stupid or too lazy to solve the puzzles on our own, or to persevere when we are stuck.
If you don't know the answer, or can't fathom a puzzle's denouement, then either stick with it until you do, or accept that you can't get a particular puzzle correct and, when the solution is published, read it and learn. That way, you'll actually improve as a solver to the point that you can get the majority (or indeed all) of the puzzles correct, rather than continuingly relying on others to help you over the line.
People who seek help on this site for puzzles, especially the Listener, the most challenging crossword series in the world, are no better than athletes who take drugs to enhance their own performance - and those who willingly supply the answers are no better than those who supply those drugs.
For pity's sake, learn to achieve things under your own steam, and accept that sometimes you don't succeed. Radix, a good friend, will have spent untold hours concocting this puzzle. The cheating that goes on here both diminishes his achievement in constructing the puzzle, as well as the achievement of those of us who spent hours wrestling to bring the puzzle to a successful conclusion.
Thanks for the rant, Listernerite
For the record, as a result of my having enlisted the help of a Very Clever Friend, I have no intention of submitting a solution. This will put pressure on my target of 45 all corrects, but I compete against myself only so what is the point?
I, and many others, are at ease with the gentle hints proffered here. We are clearly not in the advanced stages of terminal Listeneritis.
For the record, as a result of my having enlisted the help of a Very Clever Friend, I have no intention of submitting a solution. This will put pressure on my target of 45 all corrects, but I compete against myself only so what is the point?
I, and many others, are at ease with the gentle hints proffered here. We are clearly not in the advanced stages of terminal Listeneritis.
I'm sorry, but to describe what have been posted on this thread as "gentle hints" is complete, utter bullsh*t. Mysterons has published pretty much the entire final stage - the only thing he's left out is the Playfair key itself, but the information contained in his posts, particularly when combined with the use of an online Playfair solver, is all you need to solve the final stage of this puzzle.
This thread makes me sick. This puzzle has one of the hardest final stages this year - these are the puzzles that whittle down the all-corrects. To find the final step completely exposed in this manner is a bloody disgrace - it is an insult to the setter, the Listener statistician and all the solvers who actually compete honestly for the Listener stats. The people who have posted what they like to describe as "hints" should be ashamed of themselves. In recent years, the number of Listener all-corrects has been steadily rising, and I for one am utterly convinced that it is nothing to do with the puzzles getting easier, or people getting cleverer - it is due to the cheating that goes on on sites like this one.
As Listenerite quite rightly points out, if you can't work the answer out for yourself, then wait until the solution is published - or is it really not possible to wait three whole weeks? Is your instant gratification that bloody important that you want to devalue something that means a great deal to a number of hard-working people?
This thread makes me sick. This puzzle has one of the hardest final stages this year - these are the puzzles that whittle down the all-corrects. To find the final step completely exposed in this manner is a bloody disgrace - it is an insult to the setter, the Listener statistician and all the solvers who actually compete honestly for the Listener stats. The people who have posted what they like to describe as "hints" should be ashamed of themselves. In recent years, the number of Listener all-corrects has been steadily rising, and I for one am utterly convinced that it is nothing to do with the puzzles getting easier, or people getting cleverer - it is due to the cheating that goes on on sites like this one.
As Listenerite quite rightly points out, if you can't work the answer out for yourself, then wait until the solution is published - or is it really not possible to wait three whole weeks? Is your instant gratification that bloody important that you want to devalue something that means a great deal to a number of hard-working people?
I would love to be able to solve these things on my own, but like many things in life occasionally a bit of help is desirable. Right now I need a bit more help to finish this one, just for peace of mind - would anyone be willing to correspond via email about just the last step - I would ask questions here but people are irate enough as it is. email is [email protected]
Angrysolver & Listenerite. Thank you for your comments, but I make no apology for mentioning the Playfair solver. I completed this puzzle by guessing at an early stage what might be needed, and I entered 2 concatenated words into the ciphertext line - lets say as "ABab", leaving the plaintext blank. I was offered 500 possibilities, one of which was plaintext "BAba" - promising enough to encourage me to use the proffered keyword, and from there all fell into place.
I might have got there unaided in time (and yes this thread would have got me there faster) - but I did still resort to that online aid.
Tell me this - the current holder of the Silver Salver (who may even be one of you?) happily confesses to using solving aids - as do many other posters on another site. One aid in particular which I think is know as TEA seems to do lots and may itself contain a Playfair breaker - it certainly seemed to get a few people over Sabre's recent tester. Do you happily condone the use of such aids (including the presumably full text searchable CD version of Chambers!) or are they maybe excluded from what you term as "cheating"?
We all draw lines somewhere, and I personally subscribe to and salute the principles of fellow poster bobbycollins - but in the end I guess individual consciences will determine what goes on here and elsewhere.
I might have got there unaided in time (and yes this thread would have got me there faster) - but I did still resort to that online aid.
Tell me this - the current holder of the Silver Salver (who may even be one of you?) happily confesses to using solving aids - as do many other posters on another site. One aid in particular which I think is know as TEA seems to do lots and may itself contain a Playfair breaker - it certainly seemed to get a few people over Sabre's recent tester. Do you happily condone the use of such aids (including the presumably full text searchable CD version of Chambers!) or are they maybe excluded from what you term as "cheating"?
We all draw lines somewhere, and I personally subscribe to and salute the principles of fellow poster bobbycollins - but in the end I guess individual consciences will determine what goes on here and elsewhere.
I tend to agree with the well put criticisms above. But where does one draw the line? Obviously one can use a dictionary - but an electronic dictionary with search engine? I could spend long hours painstakingly working out anagrams - or use an anagram solver. So where is the degree of unacceptability that says no Playfair solver?
Then there is the human side. I work in isolation, but there are plenty of winners who are couples. What is the acceptable number of opinions one can seek?
I do suspect there is a tendency for puzzles to be just too clever at times, which may be a reaction to the appearance of the aids I have described. There is as much frustration in having solved a puzzle's clues but being unable to take the final step of manipulation because you are unfamiliar with an abstruse reference as there is when (as last week) the final requirements are too explicitly spelt out.
Then there is the human side. I work in isolation, but there are plenty of winners who are couples. What is the acceptable number of opinions one can seek?
I do suspect there is a tendency for puzzles to be just too clever at times, which may be a reaction to the appearance of the aids I have described. There is as much frustration in having solved a puzzle's clues but being unable to take the final step of manipulation because you are unfamiliar with an abstruse reference as there is when (as last week) the final requirements are too explicitly spelt out.
And Angrysolver - in response to your
"In recent years, the number of Listener all-corrects has been steadily rising, and I for one am utterly convinced that it is nothing to do with the puzzles getting easier, or people getting cleverer - it is due to the cheating that goes on on sites like this one".
I have to disagree - firstly, I think that puzzles are getting easier - I've been working through a book of old Listener puzzles, and thay cause me much more trouble than the average offering today (though of course they may be hand-picked particularly tricky ones).
That apart, I am utterly convinced that the increasing number of corrects is mainly attributable to the generally wide availability of solving aids. About seven years ago when I started solving Listeners, I had no access to any aid other than a standard dictionary - my early success rate was about half a dozen per year. Since starting to use anagram solvers / word matchers and of course the likes of Wikipedia for theme research I have reached the high forties.
As I said above, many people who venture nowhere near this site - but who post elsewhere - happily confess to using such aids.
I must finally salute the masterful few who used to rack up all-corrects way back in the good old days, on sheer brainpower .. now that was some achievement.
"In recent years, the number of Listener all-corrects has been steadily rising, and I for one am utterly convinced that it is nothing to do with the puzzles getting easier, or people getting cleverer - it is due to the cheating that goes on on sites like this one".
I have to disagree - firstly, I think that puzzles are getting easier - I've been working through a book of old Listener puzzles, and thay cause me much more trouble than the average offering today (though of course they may be hand-picked particularly tricky ones).
That apart, I am utterly convinced that the increasing number of corrects is mainly attributable to the generally wide availability of solving aids. About seven years ago when I started solving Listeners, I had no access to any aid other than a standard dictionary - my early success rate was about half a dozen per year. Since starting to use anagram solvers / word matchers and of course the likes of Wikipedia for theme research I have reached the high forties.
As I said above, many people who venture nowhere near this site - but who post elsewhere - happily confess to using such aids.
I must finally salute the masterful few who used to rack up all-corrects way back in the good old days, on sheer brainpower .. now that was some achievement.
In response to cluelessJoe, it was not your posting of the Playfair solver to which I objected, but the fact that Mysterons' postings had explained, in pretty much complete detail, the final stage of the puzzle, which meant that anyone using said Playfair solver had precisely no thinking to do whatsoever.
Yes, people (myself included) use solving aids, and points of view on these do vary among the Listener community, but there is a world of difference between using TEA, a searchable dictionary or a Playfair solver, and having someone just tell you the answer. The subtletly in this puzzle was not cracking a Playfair key from plain and cipher text, which is a pretty trivial mechanical exercise; it was working out what the plain and ciphertext actually were. Mysterons simply told everyone this information, which laid bare the part of the puzzle that I personally spent several hours trying to work out.
The Listener statistician is very clear - collaboration, i.e. getting assistance and/or answers from other solvers, is regarded as grounds for disqualification from the statistics, and if he discovers evidence of collaboration, that is what happens. Opinions do vary on the use of solving aids, ranging from dictionaries to computer tools, but the policy on collaboration is clear and unequivocal.
Yes, people (myself included) use solving aids, and points of view on these do vary among the Listener community, but there is a world of difference between using TEA, a searchable dictionary or a Playfair solver, and having someone just tell you the answer. The subtletly in this puzzle was not cracking a Playfair key from plain and cipher text, which is a pretty trivial mechanical exercise; it was working out what the plain and ciphertext actually were. Mysterons simply told everyone this information, which laid bare the part of the puzzle that I personally spent several hours trying to work out.
The Listener statistician is very clear - collaboration, i.e. getting assistance and/or answers from other solvers, is regarded as grounds for disqualification from the statistics, and if he discovers evidence of collaboration, that is what happens. Opinions do vary on the use of solving aids, ranging from dictionaries to computer tools, but the policy on collaboration is clear and unequivocal.
golgonooza
re your last post, if you have a question post it on here , I will certainly help if I can ( although Im still working on it ) I recently had a listener question banned , but I will continue to ask questions as and when I see fit and answer questions if I can, as Ive said before people should either answer or ignore the question, it really is that simple
gribble
re your last post, if you have a question post it on here , I will certainly help if I can ( although Im still working on it ) I recently had a listener question banned , but I will continue to ask questions as and when I see fit and answer questions if I can, as Ive said before people should either answer or ignore the question, it really is that simple
gribble
I don't see what all the fuss is about. No one is compelled to use this site. Presumably those that do will not send in their solutions as their own work. I never send in solutions but when I occasionally get stuck I am happy to use a hint rather than wait three weeks for the answer by which time I have rather lost interest. I expect to solve all the clues myself but the final stage needs a degree of lateral thinking or esoteric knowledge which is sometimes beyond me. This is supposed to be for enjoyment after all.
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