Listener 4109 Not a Black and White Decision

[AndrewG-S]

Grid complete except for one cell and 18 clashes identified, but stuck at the moment as to what to do next. Enjoyable so far

[bobbycollins]

...and not a clue how either of the 12 across fully work

[kwyjibo]

I'm with Dr B on this one, nice puzzle, quite tough end game and clever how it all fits in but the end game is a lot of work for an uninspiring conclusion.

[trux]

BC : re 12A, only the last two words produce second clue (and then consult BRB to understand the first clue)
Am getting much closer; I appreciate the beauty of the construction, but it's all a bit laborious ...

[mullingar]

I have completed the grid with only six clashes, but my brain is aching now. I'll see if tomorrow throws any more light on the byzantine preamble

[cluelessJoe]

Sometimes Listeners reveal a saving grace at the last, so I hope this one will. So far I have the full grid and half a dozen clashes, and need to summon the enthusiasm to start shuffling and generate a few more. Sorry to admit that I found the BBC4 Singer-songwriters won hands-down last night, and today I even found myself joining Mrs cJ to watch 'Strictly'
Never mind, tomorrow's another day, here's hoping!

[naomirod]

if i have 9 clashes on 4 rows instead of 3 as stated in the preamble,is it worth my while struggling on or is it a 451 moment?

[bobbycollins]

Thanks, Trux - easy when you know how.

Filled another grid reversing the bottom half and now I too have only six clashes. No PDM for me at the moment.

I am sure that this is clever, but may be asking a chum to explain before too long.

[contendo]

I now have 6 clashes on 3 consecutive rows but another 4 clashes on a separate row. I don't follow the wordplay on 1 down and seem to have the same definition for both answers. All very confusing.

[contendo]

...but I have at least completed the grid. Has anyone noticed that 1ac. isn't in Chambers?

[contendo]

Aha! I've resolved the 1dn problems and in the process cleared the extra row of clashes. I seem to have reached the same stage as a lot of other people. Now for the pdm.

[perseverer]

Contendo - re 1ac - check the preamble!

Overall thought this was a very cleverly constructed puzzle, but agreeing with others, not sure the theme merited the undoubted effort that went into it.

[contendo]

Perseverer - The preamble states that 1ac is normal (ie not 2 lights side by side), but it is 2 words, which you would expect to find together in Chambers as a commonly-used term.

[AndrewG-S]

contendo, I think Perseverer is referring to the last sentence of the preamble rather than the first

[flocker]

About to concede defeat. The preamble is too arcane - for this solver at least. The clashes I have lead nowhere - and what it could be that "coloured" my decision eludes me. Am I mising something blindingly obvious?? And could someone remind me what a PDM is) Something something moment I should imagine - a flash of insight - sadly lacking here so far!

[bellabee]

no hints forthcoming so for once....start by getting the 6 clashes that are forced on you then look for places where you might make colours [not entirely linearly] if you switch some answers- then perversly force out the extra clashes by switching answers[which is what i disliked about this crossword] PDM penny-drop-moment comes from a great listener from sometime ago. GOOD LUCK.

[mintyman99]

woah nellie. I've never tried a Listener before. i'm 75% there. will i ever make it?

[Scorpius]

That's a bit explicit, bellabee.

I'm not sure that starting off with the 6 clashes helps with the finale, though I can see how it might. All that's needed is to complete a grid with the 18 clashes clearly filled in, then two thematic elements stand out clearly (well, they did to me), and the rest follows from there.

I didn't like forcing the 18 either, and on my reckoning there are two exceptions to the alternating across/down choices, though I need to double-check that. There also appears to be an anomaly at the end. To my mind the theme does not fall neatly into place, but does have to be forced.

[contendo]

Doh! You're very polite, Andrew G-S.

[Scorpius]

Anomalies resolved (there is only one exception) after spotting that there are two ways of getting 18 clashes, one of them being wrong. I suppose that's all an integral part of the puzzle, but I'm not particularly keen on that initial ambiguity. It could lead to wrong solutions if people don't take care.

[turnerjmw]

Scorpius, you're too generous to Bellabee. It wasn't a bit explicit, it was ridiculous. Why not just post the solution and be done with it? It would save everyone so much time and effort