Listener 4112: Girl by Xanthippe

[Zabadak]

Really, really laugh-out-loud funny crossword, worth all the struggle through the barless grid and the decent, twisty set of clues. Goodness knows what form you're supposed to submit it in, but no doubt I'll work something out. Perhaps not the hardest (though it seems to be a late entrant tonight) but easily the most cheerful in ages. Raucous cheers to Xanthippe!

[perseverer]

JackDeCrow - this has been the situation for months now, presumably due to the uncertainty about the future of the BRB since Harrap took over Chambers. I bought Chambers Dictionary and Thesaurus on CD ROM a few months ago for £11-£12 but I see Amazon are offering it for £30 at the moment, (and it is based on the 2003 edition which very occasionally means a Listener answer is not in it.)

[mullingar]

I started late and have solved about half of the clues. Can I enter any of them at all at this stage or do I have to solve all the clues without the benefit of any crossing letters and then deal with the preamble? Phew this is a hard one!

[trux]

mullingar - if u have read the full thread, you will see that it is possible to work out which words fit on which (across) lines - start up in the top left corner - then this should allow you to reach at least the two 10-letter acrosses ... beneath the same applies but needs a bit more working out .... and then, and then ...

[aldanna]

Done! Just think how many more hours of crosswording I get than people who can do it quickly.

[jamesah]

My heart sank when I saw the first two words of the instructions as I rarely cope with endgames of this sort. I still haven't 'interpreted' the instructions and have no idea what the hints are which various people have referred to. Might I ask whether the girl in the phrase is the same as the one defined by the other set of letters? Any hints to the hints would, as usual, be gratefully received.

[turast]

I started this tonight and, like Mullingar I'm contemplating, without too much relish, the prospect of solving all clues without the benefit of crossing letters. I've got the 2 across 10 letter answers and a random selection of some of the other more accessible clues. Spatial awareness is a palpable weakness of mine. Will the grid-fill emerge from the mist if I keep "cold solving"? Any advice as to an easier way to proceed?

[cross_lover]

AndrewG-S: many thanks for your reply but I just can't see it! Have stared at this one long enough, will put it away for three weeks and then kick myself when the results are out. Or I might try again...

[trux]

turast - it sounds like you have made good progress - by looking at the lengths of the across clues you can deduce that (most likely) the first clue (5) and the second clue (4) go on top line ; the next two (4) + (4) on line two ; then (6) + (4) on line three (and, because the total is 10, must fill the whole line), etc. etc. ; this process should at least allow some grid-fill and then you can start intersecting your downs (especially in top LH corner ...)

[trux]

jamesah & cross-lover : the "hints" are visible in the grid-fill, and help with the orientation of the origami ....

[Mysterons]

jamesah - it is indeed the same girl - there are two possible ways of performing the second stage of the first part of the instruction, and a further two ways of performing the second part of the instruction. Only one of these 4 options results in a meaningful (girl related) phrase - 2 grid entries provide the hints as to which option to choose.

[Scorpius]

Most of the recent queries have been answered, but to any beginners to "carte blanche" grids, this is a good one to start on, because they don't come much easier than this, in spite of the asymmetric grid. If you solve a couple of the early acrosses and then a couple of early downs, you should be able to make a start on the upper part of the grid. Xanthippe has been kind to solvers in the clueing of some of the early entries.

As for the instructions, they cannot be interpreted in many ways, as Mysterons says. There is something very unusual about one of the grid entries (rare for a barred grid), which might help as a guide to the final step(s).

[Mr Crossy]

Still can't quite decide whether to interpret "extract" as "copy" or "move".

[jamesah]

Thanks for the help offered. I think that I can guess at the phrase so I shall probably leave it at that as I never submit the answers anyway. Phrases like 'orientation of the origami' send me straight to a bottle of something very strong!

[bobbycollins]

I'm with you, jamesah, I like messing around with words, not scissors.

[Mysterons]

Mr Crossy - for 'extract' read 'remove'

[Mr Crossy]

Thanks, Mysterons -- I was leaning that way, and I'm glad of your concurrence. I did wonder about leaving it all in place and then using highlighting, but that is not what is asked for. Certainly something of the kind is required, in order to demonstrate that you've understood where the extraction comes from, rather than just made a lucky guess at the phrase.

Incidentally, it is intriguing that, as has already been pointed out, the phrase might not be familiar to solvers who don't frequent this site, and yet ... JEG disapproves of this site altogether! Or is the phrase known also in more acceptable circles?

[daagg]

Mr Crossy, the phrase is well known in experienced thematic crossword circles. However, you make a very valid point about the fairness of this to newcomers.

[AndrewG-S]

the phrase is sort of half in Chambers, but maybe that is not good enough

[Speravi]

My opinion is likely to be controversial, and I absolve Xanthippe of responsibility for the editors' lack of backbone, but I strongly feel that this is the latest of a number of recent offerings to feature an endgame marred by the twin needs for the solver to forgive a lack of precision in what has been called, with no lack of accuracy, the pre-ramble and to divine creatively what is required from inadequate instructions. It seems that, latterly, the editors favour the meretricious over more solid, fair-play submissions from composers. I reiterate that this reflects in no way upon Xanthippe, who deserves, in my opinion, better guidance from the editors. I did enjoy the carte blanche, but I consider that the editors' indulgence of the imperfect endgame to verge on the disgraceful.

[perseverer]

The preamble refers to a set of instructions, and Chambers defines INSTRUCTIONS (pl) as "special directions for performing a specific task." It seems to me you should actually carry out instructions, rather than work along the lines of trying to figure out what the result of carrying out the instructions would be, but not actually carry them out. The 3 letter word which begins the second phase of the instructions left me with no doubt as to what had to be done to extract the phrase.

.......That's my tuppence worth, anyway!