When Or What Is The Beginning ?

[modeller]

Can someone please explain the very first line in the Bible :
Genesis 1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The definition of Beginning is : The origin of something, or the place, time, or way in which something started:

The definition of Nothing is : Not anything . Something that does not exist .

If we accept these defintions then there is Nothing before the Beginning

If there was Nothing before the Beginning , as in Genesis 1, then there could not even be a God to create something in the first place.

[jim360]

Playing God's advocate here, but are you happy with the idea that everything emerged from "nothing"?

I don't think this is the biggest problem with the Bible -- there can be "nothing in this room", say, but that does not mean that there was nothing elsewhere as well.In the same way, you might say that "in the Beginning" there was nothing in the Universe, but that God exists outside said Universe. Problem solved -- sort of...

[Peter Pedant]

erm this was a document written at least 1000 BC
and you are asking what it means ?

wouldnt it be better to ask what did it mean when they wrote it
and does it have relevance today, and if so what ?

Oh the answer may be - this is a creation myth - there are and were a lot around. Their purpose is to explain imponderables/nature in a way the listener can understand. "The big Fella put it there so you better believe it and worship him !" is adequate for mud hut dwellers at that time.

[bazwillrun]

""The big Fella put it there so you better believe it and worship him !" is adequate for mud hut dwellers at that time. "

seems to be an awful lot of people today that its adequate for today

[jomifl]

Since the bible is nonsense if the modern meanings of it's words are used then it seems that the meanings of the words are cast into doubt.
'And on the second day god opened a can of worms and saw that it was good.'
The rest is history.

[chrisgel]

It's not rocket science :0)
Simply apply the First Cause argument. God created everything including all the matter that the universe is made of.
Of course the argument tends to wobble a bit when people ask "Who created God" but believers have never let that get in their way.
These same believers who spout their "How can life come from nothing?" when confronted with evolution are perfectly willing to believe that God has always existed, doesn't have a creator himself and who got bored one day and created the universe.

[beso]

Some people believe that a better translation of the line would be:

"Without a beginning".

I am no scholar of ancient languages so I can't say.

[modeller]

If God existed before the universe then the beginning starts with God not with the creation of the universe.
If the universe was nothing then it had no dimensions . No location . So God could not exist inside nothing nor outside nothing .

//seems to be an awful lot of people today that its adequate for today //

That's right because they want to. Many need to . It gives many of them comfort. It gives them hope in the face of reality.
We all hope for many things but theists believe they have God on their side and they are not going to give up that crutch.

[modeller]

// "Without a beginning". //
I haven't heard that before.
It would imply there was something before a beginning, which wouldn't make sense and would still leave open how God was created out of nothing.

[jim360]

"If the Universe was nothing then it had no dimensions..." Couldn't it just be empty? Something can have nothing in it but still otherwise be there.

[modeller]

No because the term nothing means just that , no space or time .
It's a complex theory but at the time of the big bang there was no time or space . It created its own time and space. There are many sites on Google which tries to explain the various theories. Here is a simple one:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_time_exist_before_the_Big_Bang

[WyeDyed]

I think the argument goes that God has always existed (without begining) and always will (without end).
About 4,000 or so years ago, he spent six days creating the universe and everything in it out of nothing.
Quite simple really ;-)

[modeller]

whydyed // he spent six days creating the universe and everything in it out of nothing.//

The problem I have with that is that every Theist I speak to is so emphatic that #Something can not be created out of Nothing # and I am quite willing to agree to that.
They then, after saying it couldn't be done, God appeared from this Nothing who then created the entire cosmos from this Nothing.

[WyeDyed]

But God, being omnipotent, can create something out of nothing.
He doesn't dwell within the universe and, thus, is not subject to it's physical laws (a great get-out clause)

[chrisgel]

But if you grant the premise that //God, being omnipotent, can create something out of nothing. // Then what is to stop there being a higher being who created God out of nothing and so on and so on.

[woofgang]

blimey modeller you are boring....

[modeller]

Ah ! woofgang . At last a theist has come out of hiding . No attempt to answer the question but a quick Ya Boo !

[jim360]

No, I think you are projecting a meaning of "nothing" that is far too deep. Example: "There is nothing in this room." Well, clearly there is air, for starters. Also, the room is there. So I think you are misinterpreting nothing and making it mean far more than is meant.

Besides, Genesis doesn't seem to use the word "nothing" at any point. "And the earth was without form, and void (Gen. 1:2)" is the closest -- but then the earth is still there.

I don't believe and of this, but I think that a theist wouldn't have too much trouble answering your question. You're being too restrictive.

[modeller]

You are right jim but it does say he created the heavens and the earth so clearly there was nothing there to start with.

[chrisgel]

Jim - I can't see that your comparison with an empty room is valid. An empty room has boundaries i.e. the room itself. As for the earth still being there it seems quite clear in Genesis 1:1 that it wasn't. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Most theists I have discussed this with seem to be in agreement with Modellers proposition that there was a state of "nothing" until god spoke it all into existence.

[jim360]

Hmm... well there wasn't heavens and earth perhaps, but there was God. So there wasn't nothing.