Does anyone here believe in God?

[Cloned]

I was just reading "How quick is evolution?" question when Bob a job said "toby19 i hope your joking,this is the science section." So does anyone believe or is everyone here atheist? Discuss. Sorry i'm bored and gonna watch derren brown anyway.

[slimfandango]

yeah but you didn't actually reason out any points there clanad, did you?

[slimfandango]

It is meaningless to say that the universe has beginning, end, or edges. Since time and space was created with the universe, you cannot relate it temporally or spatially to anything outside of it.

The reason why I won't engage with you in debate, clanad, is that you come to the discussion with a pre fixed point of view which you try to embellish with pseudo facts, which is proselyting rather than reasoning. The moment you're prepared to enter a reasoned open discussion on it, let me know.

[Chillum]

So would there still be a God if if human's hadn't created the concept?

[slimfandango]

some guy was a prof.

he was also very old.

He reckoned there is a god.

therefore God exists.

[Ralph]

Clanad, the thought that the universe has no end is by no means the prime motivation for my position on the existence of a higher being. It was just where I started my thinking process over 15 years ago. Any topic I considered in a scientific manner only reinforced my "new" idea that God was an answer devised by curious and insecure humans to explain those things around them which they didn't understand. Evolution is a case in point. God is necessary if you cannot accept that an eye evolved over many millions of years and instead need to believe it was designed as we may design a newer smaller camcorder.

While not in any way a proof, the real clincher for me was the way religion and war/ murder are so closely intertwined. I have read your post which claimed the opposite, but I don't buy it (with the greatest of respect). Granted there are those that are religion free, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, but there are plenty others, Crusades, Mr Bin Laden & co, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Israel, Iraq, Kashmir (not an exhaustive list). I know it is usually a small minority at the top of their religions that spout the necessary hate but I know from first hand experience that it filters down to the common man. Religion is a convenient way to segregate people as the enemy, whether that's on a wide (christian v islam) or narrow (protestant v catholic or suni v shia) basis.
If everybody lived like a christian without the excess baggage that came along with it, the world would be a happier place.

[Mr Sensible]

Clanad -

What evidence is there of 'design'?

If any was ever found, implying a 'designer', then who or what designed the designer, which, by definition, must be even more complex than the universe it/he/she designed...

[magicdice]

i believe that there cannot possibly be a god, and i still don't entirely understand how people can actually believe in god(s), but i respect that people have different views & opinions.

the purpose of religion is to deal with the why?s of life, whereas science handles the how?s, so i suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive.

people accept descartes' proof of god, which is fundamentally flawed in the fact that it assumes there is a god to begin with and then goes on to prove this through completely botched reasoning.

[netibiza]

I believe in God, Santa Clause and AB Ed

[slimfandango]

I believe God IS the AbEd and Santa Claus rolled into one package. And that guy in the Wizard of Oz, behind the curtain.

[calleach]

I used to be an athiest until I discovered that just as much faith was required to believe there wasnt a god so now I' agnostic.

[Hamish]

Im a scientist and I believe in God. Interesting that some don't 'believe' in God. Implication is that they do not consider the no exisatance of God to be a fact.

Re Kempie. One day you will know either way....but by then it'll be too late!

[Clanad]

I've found, over the months, that I'm probably better off just answering questions that have no controversy... how water systems work, good recipes, etc.  One only has to offer a differing opinion conerning the existence of God and the 'ususal suspects' begin arriving with a rancor that I really find difficult to comprehend. Slimfandango states "it is meaningless to say the universe has a beginning" is an example.  It the context of this discussion, that fact has enormous implications.  To fully understand that the universe came into existence ex nihilo implies something outside of the universe that could cause such an event. That something must be everything the universe isn't, i.e. without beginning or end, powerful beyond description, etc. That, coupled with the fact that scientists have determined nearly 300 characteristics of the universe that, collectively, are necessary for life to begin and continue and that irreducibile complexity is one of the most widely discussed theories today and that the previously held dogma of Darwinian evoulution is highly in question has led to a renewed debate concerning a supernatural involvement.  It is, granted, a debate that will not reach a conclusion, but it is a debate in full bloom.  One only need to Google, the subjects of irreducible complexity (read Michael Behe's writings on the subject) and intelligent design to gain insight into the debate.

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

One needs to educate themselves concerning both sides of an argument before engaging.  You are correct, slimfandango, I've brought a pre-determined point of view to this and other forums, but isn't that the point?  I staunchly deny any attempt to proselytize anyone however.  I've always made a point of emphasizing one's right and duty to choose for themselves. I fully believe, having an education in Geology and other life experiences, that, fully understood, the Scriptures of Judaeo/Christian origin have brought to us a wealth of knowledge about the world we live in as well as showing a desire by the Creator, for all who will to have an intimate relationship with Him...

Sincerely hoping I've spoken sanitas orationis, I thank you...

[Bob A Job]

Clanad, I've heard this arguement about the chances of life existing, before but frankly it denies logic.

'Scientists have discovered 300 characteristics of the universe that, collectively, are necessary for life to begin and continue'

think about it, it wouldnt matter if there were 300,000 characteristics. Given the number of planets in the universe there are a billions of  scenarios of which live could exist, over time that makes it VERY probable that life WILL happen. 

Think of the universe as a whole, over its entire lifetime. There will be countless other lifeforms debating this on countless other worlds.

Just because you reason that there should be a god, does not make one exist.

[magicdice]

s'like playing cards - the whole pack is dealt between for of you & you look at your (fairly mediocre) hand of cards. you don't then say "i demand i re-deal - there must be some form of higher being around for a hand as improbable as this to be dealt"

improbable doesn't mean impossible.

[slimfandango]

Yes, there may be chances of other life on other planets, there may be chances of other life having evolved to a high level of intelligence, but I think the crucial question is: "Do they have an Answerbank?"

[slimfandango]

Clanad, why couldn't the universe just have happened out of nothing, with nothing prompting it? Just...happened

[Clanad]

For Bob a Job, the point is, each of the characteristics demands satisfaction for life, any life to exist.  For example, the Earth is tilted on it's axis by 23.5 degrees from the vertical of its rotational plane.  If this was to change by as little as 3 to 4 degrees, life could not exist due to the temperatures imposed.  Additionally, a solar system without the presence of a gas giant planet such as Jupiter could not produce life on a planet since the giant planet acts as a sweep to deter collisions with the planet. And my favorite; based on various planetary environmental conditions it is deduced that the window of time for human survival or, more specifically, for human civilization, cannot be longer than a few tens of thousands of years.

Multiple complex factors affect the brevity of that window, some more restrictive than others. The carbonate‑silicate cycle is one factor. This cycle balances the abundances of carbon, sulphur, and carbon dioxide in the environment�a balancing act made remarkably challenging by the increasing brightness of the Sun throughout life�s history on Earth. The Sun is brighter today by 17-18 percent than when bacteria first appeared on the Earth roughly 3.8 billion years ago. So far, this increase has been balanced by the removal of carbon dioxide, water, and methane from the atmosphere and the conversion of these gases through the agency of life forms into carbonates, sand, coal, natural gas, and oil. That will certainly change in the future, but the balancing act is only one of many quandries facing those who believe life to be abundant in the universe.

Finally, for Ralph, do you not find it even slightly incongrous that the most purpose driven creature on Earth is, in the end, without purpose?  You may accept that, I can't...

[Bob A Job]

Clanad, I understand all these 'characteristics' are very specific. but do you not understand that those are taylor made for life as we know it to evolve. if life evolves in different ways then the characteristics for their survival are equally specific.

We are finding more and more species on the sea bed in conditions every scientist said could not support life. This is not evidence of god, just proof that the adaptive nature of life itself is unstoppable.

Even if the chances of any inteligent life ever existing were

1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000

because of that '1' at the start, it will eventually happen. It doesnt not prove a higher intervention... Just mathmatics.

[slimfandango]

If an intelligent designer did make it that way (since no one can deny that there are a lot of factors that are needed to allow human life on earth, and they happen to be there), why did he in the end design a planet so poorly suited for a huge number of the people he made? Think of the starving in Africa, those killed in the tsunami, etc.

"I'm gonna set gravity to x, gonna put jupiter there so that they don't get wasted by asteroids, gonna give them a magnetic field so that they don't get wasted by radiation from sun, but then...

millions in Africa? let them starve to death.

thousands living in Asia? Let them drown.

Millions wandering what the hell it's all about? Let them go without explanation."

The list is endless. How does this fit in with your explanation of the human-centred universe as 'intelligently designed'?