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Taking a lead from another question here where flobadob asked atheists that how did they become atheists, I want to ask a bit different question.
I read somewhere,
"It is better to believe in God, hell, life after death and then find out that these things did not exist than not believing in these and then all of a sudden finding that it was true"
Although I have no doubt in my mind and my belief is not due to that reason, but to put this question forward let's take it HYPOTHETICALLY. I am having a good life (in this world) and can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing where I would really regret later on or would have hoped of having done that. Still when it comes to hereafter I have a hope that I will have something better there too. However suppose if that does not happen, I would still have no regrets as worse come worse I would be as anyone else who did not believe, which is nothing after this world.
However what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?
I read somewhere,
"It is better to believe in God, hell, life after death and then find out that these things did not exist than not believing in these and then all of a sudden finding that it was true"
Although I have no doubt in my mind and my belief is not due to that reason, but to put this question forward let's take it HYPOTHETICALLY. I am having a good life (in this world) and can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing where I would really regret later on or would have hoped of having done that. Still when it comes to hereafter I have a hope that I will have something better there too. However suppose if that does not happen, I would still have no regrets as worse come worse I would be as anyone else who did not believe, which is nothing after this world.
However what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?
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no, it would just mean you have an imagination. Science fiction authors manage to write about time travel (for instance) without expecting it will become reality. Lord of the Rings is no less enjoyable because Orcs don't exist. In fact all novelists project themselves into 'alternative realities'.
Go ahead, imagine!
Go ahead, imagine!
Even by theistic theory, simply believing in God does not assure a wonderful everlasting life. Some believers don't make the grade and live in horror for eternity knowing there is a God but He doesn't like them.
That atheistic oblivion sounds attractive by comparasion.
Moreover, spending a life in worship of a narrow-minded, violent, retributive God would be too much to pay for an everlasting spiritual existence. A least I have my dignity and self respect.
That atheistic oblivion sounds attractive by comparasion.
Moreover, spending a life in worship of a narrow-minded, violent, retributive God would be too much to pay for an everlasting spiritual existence. A least I have my dignity and self respect.
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keyplus90....You are pixels as am I. Our lives are entwined by our visual and missives. When the visual is defunct (you not typing missives) my life continues oblivious of you and vice versa.
That's like atheism.....I know religion exists, enforced in my youth. Now I can refute teachings and the past indoctrination has made me wary of other edicts. For this reason, I would not enforce religion on young pliable minds.
Various faiths count strength by popularity and only then harness that strength to destroy infidels. Ottoman Empire and jewish genocide showed us the dangers of 'faith strongholds'.
That's like atheism.....I know religion exists, enforced in my youth. Now I can refute teachings and the past indoctrination has made me wary of other edicts. For this reason, I would not enforce religion on young pliable minds.
Various faiths count strength by popularity and only then harness that strength to destroy infidels. Ottoman Empire and jewish genocide showed us the dangers of 'faith strongholds'.
I think you're talking about Pascal's Wager, Keyplus, but that's dodgy ground because if your God exists he will know the faith is not genuine, but simply a ploy to hedge the bet.
//can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing//
It may not have stopped you doing what you want, but it stops millions of others from doing what they want, so what about them? But of course, religion is ultimately all about self-interest so I don't suppose its effect on others concerns you. As jno said recently //It may well affect the lives of people in other countries, but that's their business// and that, along with her advice to utilise imagination, just about sums it up. It's a vivid and egotistical imagination indeed that perceives self as so very important that in the whole of this vast universe, an all powerful, supernatural being would take a personal interest, and it's a selfishly thoughtless imagination that is able to ignore the reality of the misery that religion produces for mankind.
cont...
//can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing//
It may not have stopped you doing what you want, but it stops millions of others from doing what they want, so what about them? But of course, religion is ultimately all about self-interest so I don't suppose its effect on others concerns you. As jno said recently //It may well affect the lives of people in other countries, but that's their business// and that, along with her advice to utilise imagination, just about sums it up. It's a vivid and egotistical imagination indeed that perceives self as so very important that in the whole of this vast universe, an all powerful, supernatural being would take a personal interest, and it's a selfishly thoughtless imagination that is able to ignore the reality of the misery that religion produces for mankind.
cont...
...cont
As someone who cares about people, I believe our aim should not be to look after number one, which this promise of eternal life in exchange for unquestioning obedience promotes, but to love our fellow man to the best of our ability. If religion died tomorrow, and that became our primary objective the world would be the better for it.
If I am wrong, then I am happy to be wrong because I can honestly say that I have been true to myself, I haven't spent my life obsessed with the fear of my own mortality, or worrying about the concept of sin as perceived by other people - and most importantly I won't be spending eternity with a vindictive, hateful entity for whom I have no respect whatsoever, or with his millions of fawning and terrified sycophants. For me personally that would be hell indeed! Like Beso, I prefer to retain not only my dignity and my self-respect, but also my humanity, my integrity and my free intellect.
As someone who cares about people, I believe our aim should not be to look after number one, which this promise of eternal life in exchange for unquestioning obedience promotes, but to love our fellow man to the best of our ability. If religion died tomorrow, and that became our primary objective the world would be the better for it.
If I am wrong, then I am happy to be wrong because I can honestly say that I have been true to myself, I haven't spent my life obsessed with the fear of my own mortality, or worrying about the concept of sin as perceived by other people - and most importantly I won't be spending eternity with a vindictive, hateful entity for whom I have no respect whatsoever, or with his millions of fawning and terrified sycophants. For me personally that would be hell indeed! Like Beso, I prefer to retain not only my dignity and my self-respect, but also my humanity, my integrity and my free intellect.
I'm interested in religion but it's not for me. I do lead a good life and do good things. if there is some "greater being" and he/she/it decides that I don't deserve a reward in the afterlife (should there be one) then that just about sums up my opinion on religion!
so I'll just carry on being as "nice" as I can. I'm not trying to impress a potential Mr Afterlife.
so I'll just carry on being as "nice" as I can. I'm not trying to impress a potential Mr Afterlife.
First of all I must say “there is not even a single answer to my question as yet”. But it is OK as it is known as “trying to avoid it”.
First paragraph of BESO is a bit interrelated but still a different topic. For that I (for the time being) can only say one thing. Most of the scriptures of the major religions in the world talk about “only one God” and that does make a simple sense too if you do believe in God as two captain can’t run a football team, two leaders can’t run a country and so many more examples. But as I said that is a different subject.
To rest of you who are talking about “doing good thing, loving every one, keeping your dignity and so on” I would only ask one question.
Where is the book you learnt all these words or characteristics? And then what you think is good might be considered bad by someone else. So don’t you think that main problem always starts when individuals start making their own goods and bads? So many examples can be given even in that regard.
Naomi – would you like to elaborate a bit more about few things (not all of them) you believe religion might have stopped millions of others from doing.
First paragraph of BESO is a bit interrelated but still a different topic. For that I (for the time being) can only say one thing. Most of the scriptures of the major religions in the world talk about “only one God” and that does make a simple sense too if you do believe in God as two captain can’t run a football team, two leaders can’t run a country and so many more examples. But as I said that is a different subject.
To rest of you who are talking about “doing good thing, loving every one, keeping your dignity and so on” I would only ask one question.
Where is the book you learnt all these words or characteristics? And then what you think is good might be considered bad by someone else. So don’t you think that main problem always starts when individuals start making their own goods and bads? So many examples can be given even in that regard.
Naomi – would you like to elaborate a bit more about few things (not all of them) you believe religion might have stopped millions of others from doing.
"......believe in God, hell, life after death......" Keyplus,
1. Does your god tell you to kill infidels?
2. Does your god tell you to kill your wife if she commits adultery?
3. Does your god tell you to kill your daughter if she liases with a man you disapprove of?
4. Does your god promise rewards to you if you harm other people?
If your god edicts above to secure you a good afterlife then you are a danger to humanity and will rightly be despised. An athiest does not practice nor approve any of the above.
1. Does your god tell you to kill infidels?
2. Does your god tell you to kill your wife if she commits adultery?
3. Does your god tell you to kill your daughter if she liases with a man you disapprove of?
4. Does your god promise rewards to you if you harm other people?
If your god edicts above to secure you a good afterlife then you are a danger to humanity and will rightly be despised. An athiest does not practice nor approve any of the above.
The real danger of individuals determinging their own morality is when they believe their insights are given to them directly by God. Well may they have been great insights for them at that time and may have even been breakthroughs in thinking for a society. However assigning special status to any belief to place it beyond reproach is not only intellectually dishonest but morally corrupt in itself.
This is exactly what Mohammed (pubh) did many centuries ago. He wrote down his personal truths and then presumed to enforce it others just as the Romans did with Christianity and Hebrews did with Judeaism. In each case the believers locked themselves into primitive moral concepts such as the twisted Muslim attitude to sexuality we debunked earlier in this thread.
Where is the book? The stupid holy books are nothing more than the transcripts of the delusionary thoughts of the prophets. Writing them down affords no further credibility. Moreover the philosophies contained in them are demonstrably distasteful. Clearly what you think is right for no better reason than it being ritten in an old book is quite wrong by objective standards let alone worthy of subjective opinion. A morality that dictates different values on the basis of sex is inescapably flawed at the core.
Morality should be negotiated by those involved, not derceed on the basis of the bigotted musings of an ancient man who had far too high an opinion of himself.
This is exactly what Mohammed (pubh) did many centuries ago. He wrote down his personal truths and then presumed to enforce it others just as the Romans did with Christianity and Hebrews did with Judeaism. In each case the believers locked themselves into primitive moral concepts such as the twisted Muslim attitude to sexuality we debunked earlier in this thread.
Where is the book? The stupid holy books are nothing more than the transcripts of the delusionary thoughts of the prophets. Writing them down affords no further credibility. Moreover the philosophies contained in them are demonstrably distasteful. Clearly what you think is right for no better reason than it being ritten in an old book is quite wrong by objective standards let alone worthy of subjective opinion. A morality that dictates different values on the basis of sex is inescapably flawed at the core.
Morality should be negotiated by those involved, not derceed on the basis of the bigotted musings of an ancient man who had far too high an opinion of himself.
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If your question was //what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?// no one has tried to avoid answering it, Keyplus. The concept of this 'hope' you speak of doesn't exist for those who accept that when their lives are over, they will die.
What does religion stop people from doing? Without going into great detail yet again, consider the Church's attitude to the use of condoms, and Islam's appalling attitude to women. And what about arranged marriages? By your own admission your children won't be allowed to marry people you disapprove of.
No, I don't think the main problem always starts when individuals make their own 'goods and bads', and there is no book from which we have 'learnt all these words and characteristics'. That comes from the ability to think freely, which is something you have never experienced because your religion makes you incapable of it. I challenge you to find fault with my suggestion that if religion died tomorrow, and we endeavoured to love our fellow man to the best of our ability, the world would be a better place. Of course, you'd have to accept that you wouldn't have eternal life, and since you've admitted previously that without that aspiration you wouldn't believe in your god, that is your real stumbling block to facing reality. Quite simply, you are afraid of death.
What does religion stop people from doing? Without going into great detail yet again, consider the Church's attitude to the use of condoms, and Islam's appalling attitude to women. And what about arranged marriages? By your own admission your children won't be allowed to marry people you disapprove of.
No, I don't think the main problem always starts when individuals make their own 'goods and bads', and there is no book from which we have 'learnt all these words and characteristics'. That comes from the ability to think freely, which is something you have never experienced because your religion makes you incapable of it. I challenge you to find fault with my suggestion that if religion died tomorrow, and we endeavoured to love our fellow man to the best of our ability, the world would be a better place. Of course, you'd have to accept that you wouldn't have eternal life, and since you've admitted previously that without that aspiration you wouldn't believe in your god, that is your real stumbling block to facing reality. Quite simply, you are afraid of death.
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