ChatterBank3 mins ago
Were We Better Off Dumb?
37 Answers
I'm a believer in science and all that it has brought to mankind. Though, unlike my entire maternal family, I share no faith with them. Christianity (respectfully) in my humble opinion, is a theocracy set up to retain control of Europe by the dwindling Roman Empire, ensuring Rome as the powerhouse that focused the faiths of many nations under one banner, as it remains today. Because of it's dark history and fractured demographic (over 10,000 sects of Christianity today), I found no appeal to its teachings so I studied teachings of Science. It allows access to the Universe in all it's glory and fact becomes stranger than fiction!!
My point is, I find myself feeling hollow, unfulfilled by science's limit of knowledge. Profoundly deep questions still remain to addressed... "Is there a God?" "Where did our universe come from?" "Do we all possess a spirit?"
So I find myself thinking, would I have been better off indoctrinated to Christian (or even Pagan) beliefs in a time where Humans were "God's children" and the Earth was specially made for us, and the stars in the sky were angels and souls? My grandparents, aunty, uncle and cousins all believe this, and they seem so at peace and loved, it's enviable...
Anyone else share this feeling? Is ignorance bliss?
IHI
My point is, I find myself feeling hollow, unfulfilled by science's limit of knowledge. Profoundly deep questions still remain to addressed... "Is there a God?" "Where did our universe come from?" "Do we all possess a spirit?"
So I find myself thinking, would I have been better off indoctrinated to Christian (or even Pagan) beliefs in a time where Humans were "God's children" and the Earth was specially made for us, and the stars in the sky were angels and souls? My grandparents, aunty, uncle and cousins all believe this, and they seem so at peace and loved, it's enviable...
Anyone else share this feeling? Is ignorance bliss?
IHI
Answers
A lot depends on why you feel hollow. Science for all its glory is never going to be finished. Actually that's what makes it so good, but anyway. I get the feeling that you are seeking a sense of completion, finality. You aren't going to get that in science, almost by definition. "Teachings of Science", "I'm a great believer in Science" make me think that you are...
21:05 Mon 04th Mar 2013
Well, not in my opinion, no :) I prefer a humanity pushing the boundaries, developing technologies, to improve the human experience personally.
One comment that is often made about not having faith is that those without it are somehow diminished, that their ability to comprehend or interact with the universe around them is reduced through that lack of spiritual awareness, for want of a more accurate phrase.
And many of those will claim that those big picture questions you are mentioning, such as the existence of god, do we have a spirit / soul, all that kind of thing cannot be answered by science. But, if you genuinely want a considered answer, how else are you going to arrive at any meaningful answers except with the scientific method?
So no, ignorance is most definitely not bliss, IMO :)
One comment that is often made about not having faith is that those without it are somehow diminished, that their ability to comprehend or interact with the universe around them is reduced through that lack of spiritual awareness, for want of a more accurate phrase.
And many of those will claim that those big picture questions you are mentioning, such as the existence of god, do we have a spirit / soul, all that kind of thing cannot be answered by science. But, if you genuinely want a considered answer, how else are you going to arrive at any meaningful answers except with the scientific method?
So no, ignorance is most definitely not bliss, IMO :)
ignorance is never bliss in my opinion, only a fools paradise. In time, and it will come when the scientists will explain a lot more of the mystery of life, when you consider how far they have come in recent years, amazing discoveries and incredible leaps in scientific understanding. I can't say that i understand a lot of what happens out there in deep space, but confess it is fascinating, being a little speck in an ocean of space, makes you feel quite humble. And it's largely religious doctrine that has held mankind back in many ways, if you truly think about it, with suspicion and often hatred of the sciences.
A lot depends on why you feel hollow. Science for all its glory is never going to be finished. Actually that's what makes it so good, but anyway. I get the feeling that you are seeking a sense of completion, finality. You aren't going to get that in science, almost by definition.
"Teachings of Science", "I'm a great believer in Science" make me think that you are treating it is just another faith. It's really not like that at all, and certainly won't provide answers to questions in the same way that Religion does. So I think you may need to give more thought to what you think Science is about, and read more into it. Enjoy your journey.
"Teachings of Science", "I'm a great believer in Science" make me think that you are treating it is just another faith. It's really not like that at all, and certainly won't provide answers to questions in the same way that Religion does. So I think you may need to give more thought to what you think Science is about, and read more into it. Enjoy your journey.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
I am suffering from the former, I know my science but have no religion. However many more scientific facts and religious teachings I cram into my head and imagine interplay between them, I keep hitting brick walls. When René Descartes said "I think therefore I am", I can understand biologically, chemically and physically why and how I am able to think, but how does one define 'self'?
I'm feeling disconnected and in need of spiritual nourishment and although it may seem to you Jim, I promise you I retain enough logic over my soul to not confuse science with religion, though I feel the two are intertwined, as Einstein put it. Hmm... :( I would never trade the excitement I feel by learning how truly bizarre reality is for a soul satisfying C15th view of heaven, hell and Earth. But sometimes I envy their perspective on life.
Anyone here a religious scientist?
IHI
I am suffering from the former, I know my science but have no religion. However many more scientific facts and religious teachings I cram into my head and imagine interplay between them, I keep hitting brick walls. When René Descartes said "I think therefore I am", I can understand biologically, chemically and physically why and how I am able to think, but how does one define 'self'?
I'm feeling disconnected and in need of spiritual nourishment and although it may seem to you Jim, I promise you I retain enough logic over my soul to not confuse science with religion, though I feel the two are intertwined, as Einstein put it. Hmm... :( I would never trade the excitement I feel by learning how truly bizarre reality is for a soul satisfying C15th view of heaven, hell and Earth. But sometimes I envy their perspective on life.
Anyone here a religious scientist?
IHI
It seems to me you want/need the crutches of religion to cope with life.
You are not alone most people look for explanations for everything they don't understand. If they can't find the explanation religion can fill the gap.
The fact that it has no more validity than father christmas or the tooth fairy
is immaterial. It gives them comfort which you are looking for.
You are not alone most people look for explanations for everything they don't understand. If they can't find the explanation religion can fill the gap.
The fact that it has no more validity than father christmas or the tooth fairy
is immaterial. It gives them comfort which you are looking for.
-- answer removed --
Modeller "It seems to me you want/need the crutches of religion to cope with life." - wouldn't put it exactly like that. I don't need an imaginary friend to hold my hand. I've overcome more than you know and survived without religion. However you choose to live and what ever happens to you, a man must inevitably face the question of spirituality, no matter how long you avoid it. I guess some give it more thought than others, some ignore it and some embrace it.
Maybe my exposure to Christianity as a child created a kind of security and since deciding not to believe, it's left a God shape void in me. Like how Christmas is never as magical as it was when you believed Santa existed. Have you asked yourself the question?
Maybe my exposure to Christianity as a child created a kind of security and since deciding not to believe, it's left a God shape void in me. Like how Christmas is never as magical as it was when you believed Santa existed. Have you asked yourself the question?
"Anyone here a religious scientist?"
I'm no scientists by profession but maybe a type of one from "popular interest" and desire to learn/know. I rarely align myself with established religion since it comes with so much baggage, but I'm open to spiritual ideas and suspect there is more than the physical reality we can measure.
No I don't think indoctrination is better even if it makes a particular individual more at ease. I think being as open to discussing ideas as one can be is a better option in the long run. But if you feel differently feel free to go get indoctrinated for your own peace of mind.
I'm no scientists by profession but maybe a type of one from "popular interest" and desire to learn/know. I rarely align myself with established religion since it comes with so much baggage, but I'm open to spiritual ideas and suspect there is more than the physical reality we can measure.
No I don't think indoctrination is better even if it makes a particular individual more at ease. I think being as open to discussing ideas as one can be is a better option in the long run. But if you feel differently feel free to go get indoctrinated for your own peace of mind.
Did you know all people are inclined to worship someone or something, even if it is to worship one’s own self.
So the truth of the matter is this, these are all contributing factors—evolution, modern atheism, pagan doctrines taught by both the Catholics and the Protestants, the hiding of the Bible under the creeds and traditions of men, the rejection of the Bible as God’s inspired Word of Truth, the gross blindness of the clergy, and the woeful indifference of the people themselves toward reading and studying the Bible—all these elements combined have produced a generation of hypocrites!.
Some draw near to God with their lips and prayer, but their hearts are far from Him and their minds are so far removed they know not even the simplest things about the Bible. Yes in vain they do worship, teaching and believing the commandments of men and the philosophies of the pagans.—Matt. 15:1-9.
So the truth of the matter is this, these are all contributing factors—evolution, modern atheism, pagan doctrines taught by both the Catholics and the Protestants, the hiding of the Bible under the creeds and traditions of men, the rejection of the Bible as God’s inspired Word of Truth, the gross blindness of the clergy, and the woeful indifference of the people themselves toward reading and studying the Bible—all these elements combined have produced a generation of hypocrites!.
Some draw near to God with their lips and prayer, but their hearts are far from Him and their minds are so far removed they know not even the simplest things about the Bible. Yes in vain they do worship, teaching and believing the commandments of men and the philosophies of the pagans.—Matt. 15:1-9.
I'd watch out for quotes about Einstein and religion.
His views were notoriously difficult to pin down he certainly wasn't a great fan of religion at one point he professed a belief in 'Spinoza's God' google that you'll find some interesting thoughts!
My personal thoughts on this are that as Arthur C Clarke so famously remarked 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' - well what is the difference between the concept of God and that?
It's that the concept of God is bound up with that of the soul, and life after death.
For me then it all revolves around the concept of an immortal soul - there are no religions that do not share this concept of personal survival of death.
Unfortunately it's nonsense
To survive death you must first survive life - there are plenty of cases of brain trauma where people lose their memories, their personality, their very self. I've watched my own father slowly dissolve with dementia - where is his soul?
The real key to som much of this is the nature of time - if you were to ask any physisict what he'd really like to understand beyond anything else it's probably that.
Time is not the way we normally perceive it, it's far more complex but our very language is reliant on it you can't conceive a lack of time because the language doesn't permit it, our mental facaulties are interwoven with it but yet as you approach the speed of light it slows, gravity slows it.
These are where the deep mysteries lie,
As for religion most atheists don't understand that most churchgoers are more concerned with what they get out of it, the community - if they have to confess a belief that a carpenter can rise from the dead to get that they don't worry about it too much.
That attitude is incomprehensible to most atheists and that is what truely divides us.
Here endeth the lesson :c)
His views were notoriously difficult to pin down he certainly wasn't a great fan of religion at one point he professed a belief in 'Spinoza's God' google that you'll find some interesting thoughts!
My personal thoughts on this are that as Arthur C Clarke so famously remarked 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' - well what is the difference between the concept of God and that?
It's that the concept of God is bound up with that of the soul, and life after death.
For me then it all revolves around the concept of an immortal soul - there are no religions that do not share this concept of personal survival of death.
Unfortunately it's nonsense
To survive death you must first survive life - there are plenty of cases of brain trauma where people lose their memories, their personality, their very self. I've watched my own father slowly dissolve with dementia - where is his soul?
The real key to som much of this is the nature of time - if you were to ask any physisict what he'd really like to understand beyond anything else it's probably that.
Time is not the way we normally perceive it, it's far more complex but our very language is reliant on it you can't conceive a lack of time because the language doesn't permit it, our mental facaulties are interwoven with it but yet as you approach the speed of light it slows, gravity slows it.
These are where the deep mysteries lie,
As for religion most atheists don't understand that most churchgoers are more concerned with what they get out of it, the community - if they have to confess a belief that a carpenter can rise from the dead to get that they don't worry about it too much.
That attitude is incomprehensible to most atheists and that is what truely divides us.
Here endeth the lesson :c)
Great!
Interesting points raised with many points of view. I don't believe in the after life or re-birth so that leaves me clashing with every major world religion. Despite this, I 'think' there could be some deliberate action that sparked us into existence, who ever that was. Some have suggested the our future selves many years ahead of us, went back in time and created the singularity so we might exist!! Several deep paradox's arise from that so no need to give it much thought.
One thing it focusses on though is the creator and I feel the more I let my logic slip on these matters, the stronger the "need for intervention" theory will get in my mind. I'm impartial in politics, religion, science and in general, so it would take a very large spiritual experience to convince me to convert.
Thanks for your input guys, actually helped clear my mind.
@OG - IMO (in my opinion) but what's TLA? Still a bit new to this :)
Interesting points raised with many points of view. I don't believe in the after life or re-birth so that leaves me clashing with every major world religion. Despite this, I 'think' there could be some deliberate action that sparked us into existence, who ever that was. Some have suggested the our future selves many years ahead of us, went back in time and created the singularity so we might exist!! Several deep paradox's arise from that so no need to give it much thought.
One thing it focusses on though is the creator and I feel the more I let my logic slip on these matters, the stronger the "need for intervention" theory will get in my mind. I'm impartial in politics, religion, science and in general, so it would take a very large spiritual experience to convince me to convert.
Thanks for your input guys, actually helped clear my mind.
@OG - IMO (in my opinion) but what's TLA? Still a bit new to this :)
Strange, isn’t it that there should be so many conflicting opinions when all of Christendom’s religions claim to get support for their doctrines from one harmonious book, the Holy Bible Surely the Bible is not so vague or confusing on these issues as are the theories and philosophies of men, nor is it divided into as many conflicting opinions regarding the place and state of the dead.
When you see scientists study the design of humans, they are baffled. They find that we have been endowed with resources and capabilities that far exceed the needs of our 70- to 80-year life span. For example, scientists have found that the human brain has immense memory capacity. One researcher estimated that our brain can hold information that “would fill some twenty million volumes, as many as in the world’s largest libraries.” Some neuroscientists figure that during an average lifetime, a person uses only 1/100 of 1 percent (.0001) of his potential brain capacity. It is appropriate to ask, ‘Why do we have a brain with such a large capacity when we utilize only a tiny fraction of it in an average lifetime, and one could go on and on about our body.
And yet God had reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) simple, but it too for you.
When you see scientists study the design of humans, they are baffled. They find that we have been endowed with resources and capabilities that far exceed the needs of our 70- to 80-year life span. For example, scientists have found that the human brain has immense memory capacity. One researcher estimated that our brain can hold information that “would fill some twenty million volumes, as many as in the world’s largest libraries.” Some neuroscientists figure that during an average lifetime, a person uses only 1/100 of 1 percent (.0001) of his potential brain capacity. It is appropriate to ask, ‘Why do we have a brain with such a large capacity when we utilize only a tiny fraction of it in an average lifetime, and one could go on and on about our body.
And yet God had reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) simple, but it too for you.
