Twitching & Birdwatching11 mins ago
Ragged Trousered Philanthropist.
83 Answers
In the society described in the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, what changes would you have recommended to improve the lot of the workers suffering such penury?
Answers
"Theland, what answer are you looking for?" Theland "An interesting one." I thought time travel was an interesting answer....I mean ok maybe not practical but interesting
15:07 Wed 24th Jun 2020
Tilly, //You are obviously aware of the problem they had.//
I’m very well aware they were poor but you gave the reason as Capitalism, and with that I disagree. I’d place the reason for their plight on having more children than they could afford - ten, twelve, or even fourteen wasn’t unusual in those days. Add to that poor health care, poor housing, and often a shortage of work - something a few more enterprising capitalists would have remedied by founding businesses, building factories and, hence, providing jobs - and you have a perfect recipe for hardship.
I’m very well aware they were poor but you gave the reason as Capitalism, and with that I disagree. I’d place the reason for their plight on having more children than they could afford - ten, twelve, or even fourteen wasn’t unusual in those days. Add to that poor health care, poor housing, and often a shortage of work - something a few more enterprising capitalists would have remedied by founding businesses, building factories and, hence, providing jobs - and you have a perfect recipe for hardship.
Contraception was not what it is today, and people had more children because of high infant mortality.
Poor health care and housing out of the workers hands.
Unemployment is an important factor in the capitalist system.
Capitalists starting businesses and building factories?
Sorry Naomi, there are huge gaps in your social and economic history.
What degree did you earn at university?
Obviously not science, nor social and economic history.
What exactly is your area of expertise?
You often display more passion than knowledge.
Poor health care and housing out of the workers hands.
Unemployment is an important factor in the capitalist system.
Capitalists starting businesses and building factories?
Sorry Naomi, there are huge gaps in your social and economic history.
What degree did you earn at university?
Obviously not science, nor social and economic history.
What exactly is your area of expertise?
You often display more passion than knowledge.
Don’t be ridiculous, Theland. People didn’t have children to replace those they’d lost. They could barely afford to keep those that survived!
//Capitalists starting businesses and building factories? ….there are huge gaps in your social and economic history. //
Who do you think starts businesses and builds factories? The fairies?
//What degree did you earn at university?//
Mind your own business.
//Capitalists starting businesses and building factories? ….there are huge gaps in your social and economic history. //
Who do you think starts businesses and builds factories? The fairies?
//What degree did you earn at university?//
Mind your own business.
Yes entrepreneurs or inherited money built factories, which in many cases were hell holes.
This is where Marx was correct.
Wages paid, just enough to feed and house workers, to keep the supply of cheap labour, in other words, exploitation.
I strongly recommend you read the book.
You will enjoy the story, and come to understand why it struck a chord with the working class.
This is where Marx was correct.
Wages paid, just enough to feed and house workers, to keep the supply of cheap labour, in other words, exploitation.
I strongly recommend you read the book.
You will enjoy the story, and come to understand why it struck a chord with the working class.
Naomi,Between TV and first hand observations like yours, I have a pretty good idea of life under totalitarian communism, and no, I wouldnt like it.
But Marx was able to diagnose the problems with capitalism even if his solutions left much to be desired.
The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is an attempt to encapsulate in a single narrative, the problems and sufferings under capitalism.
If you fully understand capitalism, then besides hailing its successes, you must also recognise its failures, and the suffering it causes.
You appear to fully understand the former, and not understanding of ignoring the latter.
Too often on here, the comfortably off lecture us from their ivory towers, on the causes of poverty.
That will not do.
But Marx was able to diagnose the problems with capitalism even if his solutions left much to be desired.
The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is an attempt to encapsulate in a single narrative, the problems and sufferings under capitalism.
If you fully understand capitalism, then besides hailing its successes, you must also recognise its failures, and the suffering it causes.
You appear to fully understand the former, and not understanding of ignoring the latter.
Too often on here, the comfortably off lecture us from their ivory towers, on the causes of poverty.
That will not do.
Marx’s solutions left more than much to be desired which is why communism collapses. It takes no account of human needs or aspirations, or indeed of human nature - and don’t imagine for one minute that communist societies don’t have their elite. They do. Very much so. No system is ever going to be perfect but the people you despise so much - you know, the ones who live in those ivory towers - unlike those who expect society to support them - have in the main worked damned hard to get what they have. That said, lame ducks who do nothing more than continually bewail their lot will be lame ducks in any society. As I said, human nature.
You say I don’t understand but do you ever ask yourself just why those societies collapse? There isn’t and never has been one of them that has ever succeeded in offering a good standard of life to ordinary people - not one - so just how good can it be?
You say I don’t understand but do you ever ask yourself just why those societies collapse? There isn’t and never has been one of them that has ever succeeded in offering a good standard of life to ordinary people - not one - so just how good can it be?
I agree with you.
Communism doesn't allow people to fulfil their potential and fails to fully understand human nature.
We are on the same page on this.
I don't advocate the solutions put forward by communism, but give it credit for recognising the problems and greed in capitalism, which by necessity requires an underclass of poverty.
Regarding wealth, much of it is not earned, but inherited or as a result of speculation which is damaging to the economy.
Communism doesn't allow people to fulfil their potential and fails to fully understand human nature.
We are on the same page on this.
I don't advocate the solutions put forward by communism, but give it credit for recognising the problems and greed in capitalism, which by necessity requires an underclass of poverty.
Regarding wealth, much of it is not earned, but inherited or as a result of speculation which is damaging to the economy.
Theland, //capitalism, which by necessity requires an underclass of poverty.//
Nonsense. Our society - this terrible Capitalist society that you are forced to endure - offers education, and hence, opportunity for anyone who has the wherewithal to recognise it. All societies require people to do jobs right across the board - and that happens automatically because some are more intellectually gifted or more practically skilled than others - that’s life - but it’s unrealistic to imagine that a brain surgeon should be on the same financial level as a bus driver. Who would bother to study for years to be a brain surgeon in your Marxist Utopia - or indeed to spend his days down a coal mine - when he could be out in the sunshine, practically stress-free, driving a nice comfy bus?
//Regarding wealth, much of it is not earned, but inherited or as a result of speculation which is damaging to the economy.//
Speculation doesn’t damage the economy - it fuels it. It generates wealth for the country - and that means for all of us. In fact it pays your pension. Furthermore, you sold your house and gave the proceeds to your children. Why would you expect anyone else to act differently? Or is in one rule for one and another for another in your world, Theland?
You claim to be a realist - but you’re not. You’re alright on your own side.
Nonsense. Our society - this terrible Capitalist society that you are forced to endure - offers education, and hence, opportunity for anyone who has the wherewithal to recognise it. All societies require people to do jobs right across the board - and that happens automatically because some are more intellectually gifted or more practically skilled than others - that’s life - but it’s unrealistic to imagine that a brain surgeon should be on the same financial level as a bus driver. Who would bother to study for years to be a brain surgeon in your Marxist Utopia - or indeed to spend his days down a coal mine - when he could be out in the sunshine, practically stress-free, driving a nice comfy bus?
//Regarding wealth, much of it is not earned, but inherited or as a result of speculation which is damaging to the economy.//
Speculation doesn’t damage the economy - it fuels it. It generates wealth for the country - and that means for all of us. In fact it pays your pension. Furthermore, you sold your house and gave the proceeds to your children. Why would you expect anyone else to act differently? Or is in one rule for one and another for another in your world, Theland?
You claim to be a realist - but you’re not. You’re alright on your own side.
Theland.
Read more Marx. He (and Engels) were writing about the liberation of people, freeing them from the 'nexus' of the capitalist system which condemned the mass of the people to labour while the few sat on their asses.
There are good reasons why the various experiments in socialist societies have failed, and many can be laid at the door of the rest of the world, desperate to extinguish any socialist movements.
Naomi bangs her one-pony drum all the time braying 'show me a country where socialism has succeeded' as if that is an argument against (a) Marxist economics and (b) in favour of capitalism's ravages. It isn't.
'Show me a Christian country where the teachings of Christ have succeeded!' Not an argument against Christian teachings.
'Show me a Buddhist country where the teachings of the Buddha have succeeded!' Similar nonsense.
There is more to it all than is dreamt of by most round here, Theland. Keep on searching, pal.
Allen.
Read more Marx. He (and Engels) were writing about the liberation of people, freeing them from the 'nexus' of the capitalist system which condemned the mass of the people to labour while the few sat on their asses.
There are good reasons why the various experiments in socialist societies have failed, and many can be laid at the door of the rest of the world, desperate to extinguish any socialist movements.
Naomi bangs her one-pony drum all the time braying 'show me a country where socialism has succeeded' as if that is an argument against (a) Marxist economics and (b) in favour of capitalism's ravages. It isn't.
'Show me a Christian country where the teachings of Christ have succeeded!' Not an argument against Christian teachings.
'Show me a Buddhist country where the teachings of the Buddha have succeeded!' Similar nonsense.
There is more to it all than is dreamt of by most round here, Theland. Keep on searching, pal.
Allen.
I've never suggested salary equity.
Your refusal to look realistically at the people at the bottom of the pile is a shame.
Not one single capitalist banker was gaoled for the 2008 financial crisis.
That's left for the lower class!to pick up the bill and suffer austerity as a result.
Even the elitist arts are subsidised by the working class who could rarely afford a ticket.
You live in a dream world, and it sounds like pleasant dreams, so why should you worry or care?
And you don't.
Your refusal to look realistically at the people at the bottom of the pile is a shame.
Not one single capitalist banker was gaoled for the 2008 financial crisis.
That's left for the lower class!to pick up the bill and suffer austerity as a result.
Even the elitist arts are subsidised by the working class who could rarely afford a ticket.
You live in a dream world, and it sounds like pleasant dreams, so why should you worry or care?
And you don't.
//There are good reasons why the various experiments in socialist societies have failed//
There's only one reason, Allen. It's because it doesn't work. If it did the system wouldn't collapse in favour of something the populace, having experienced it, find more appealing.
Have you ever seen a communist country in action and if so, what did you find so attractive about it? I think I may have asked you that question a couple of times before but I can't recall ever getting an answer.
There's only one reason, Allen. It's because it doesn't work. If it did the system wouldn't collapse in favour of something the populace, having experienced it, find more appealing.
Have you ever seen a communist country in action and if so, what did you find so attractive about it? I think I may have asked you that question a couple of times before but I can't recall ever getting an answer.
Theland, everyone’s money was tied up in those banks - rich - poor - the lot. That’s why they were bailed out.
//Even the elitist arts are subsidised by the working class who could rarely afford a ticket.//
Rubbish! The working class can afford tickets - not in the front stalls at Covent Garden perhaps - but you’ll see plenty who aren’t dripping in diamonds in other areas. I remember a conversation with you a while back where you were moaning about never having seen an opera because seats were selling at something like £70. I checked that theatre out and told you seats were on sale for about £12. You didn’t get back to me.
//You live in a dream world, and it sounds like pleasant dreams, so why should you worry or care?
And you don't.//
I’d be obliged if you’ll keep your rudeness to yourself. You don't know me.
//Even the elitist arts are subsidised by the working class who could rarely afford a ticket.//
Rubbish! The working class can afford tickets - not in the front stalls at Covent Garden perhaps - but you’ll see plenty who aren’t dripping in diamonds in other areas. I remember a conversation with you a while back where you were moaning about never having seen an opera because seats were selling at something like £70. I checked that theatre out and told you seats were on sale for about £12. You didn’t get back to me.
//You live in a dream world, and it sounds like pleasant dreams, so why should you worry or care?
And you don't.//
I’d be obliged if you’ll keep your rudeness to yourself. You don't know me.
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