Should We Create A Third Gender?

[naomi24]

Given all the controversy over the transgender issue and whether or not men who self-identify as women should be allowed to use women’s facilities, should we establish an accepted third gender as I believe some other countries have, and allocate those people separate spaces?

[jim360]

You may have to wait a long time for an answer to your question at 15.50, at least from me. I don't even know where/how to begin addressing something so complex, especially as it feels highly subjective.

Also, on the note of agreement we found, I don't even regard it as a compromise. I haven't shifted position. It's nice to find common ground at least.

[pixie374]

It'll be available, Jim. In fact, Karen White raped 2 and sexually attacked 2 more. How many transgender females have done the same to men in male prisons? I guess- the number should be the same.
And no, sex is not subjective. Gender is, and I'm not sure anyone doubts that.
I haven't either. I wish we could educate men to allow others to just be how they are. The reasons why transgender males are uncomfortable with sharing private space with other men- are exactly the same and as valid, as why women are wary of sharing theirs with men.

[jim360]

"It'll be available, Jim."

I wouldn't be so sure. In the first place, as I've pointed out, if the transgender person has obtained a GRC, then they are currently, and are likely always to be, counted according to the sex recorded on their birth certificate. I will maybe do some digging later, but I remember when I was looking into it following the previous thread that statistics on the matter were poor.

Thanks for the correction on Karen White. Off the top of my head I can't remember if it is specified in the statistics whether or not the 7 incidents referred to were separated by incident or by perpetrator, which also seems to matter greatly.

[pixie374]

They were recorded as committed by a woman. Which seems wrong from the start.
Few people have a GRC- and as we have established, it makes no real difference. A DNA test, would give accurate statistics, which is a lot of the problem really.
I think I have said before, about Matthew Wright, doing a section on morning TV, where 4 transgender males, battered a gay man. His title, with no sense of irony whatsoever (I watched it all), was "Are women becoming more violent?". Literally incredible.

[Chinajan]

On the topic of crime statistics, a number of police forces are recording crimes, including rape, as committed by women if the perpetrator is biologically male but self-identifies as female.

This is a ludicrous situation.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/police_record_males_as_female/

[jim360]

// And no, sex is not subjective. Gender is, and I'm not sure anyone doubts that. //

We so often seem to be speaking at cross-purposes. As far as I am concerned, the only interesting way to answer the question you posed at 15:50 is in terms of gender identity. I'm not sure why I should need to list the biological differences and similarities between males and females.

[pixie374]

Exactly, China.
You absolutely don't, Jim. What I'm asking is- should females or males, present, behave, act... differently, according to what sex they are? That is something nobody can change (I think you would agree?). So - why are we now putting stereotypes onto people, when we have tried to come away from that?
The reason I believe, that you dont want to answer my question above, is because you know it would just be a list of stereotypes.
I have seen people saying, for example, that they "knew" their son was trans, because he liked wearing lipstick, playing with dolls... etc. Nothing actually "female" though.

[Ellipsis]

In a perfect civilised world there would not be "mens facilities" and "womens facilities", there would just be "facilities", where any facility was equally and safely usable by anybody of any gender or (dis)ability. While we're some way off that, we have to work a) towards that and b) sensibly with what we have in the meantime.

Aircraft and homes are two examples of facilities that already work for "all" (not quite all as neither are typically for the disabled).

[Khandro]

Ellipsis //In a perfect civilised world there would not be "mens facilities" and "womens facilities", there would just be "facilities", where any facility was equally and safely usable by anybody of any gender or (dis)ability //

Why ?? The last thing the majority of "civilised" women (men too) would want would be joint showers & changing rooms along with many other facilities. Our system works fine, though it seems not to for 0.1% of the population, well hard cheese!

[pixie374]

Yes, ellipsis, and that didn't safely work. So females are now allowed to keep males out of private spaces.

[Ellipsis]

Private should be private.

You don't find male and female disabled toilets. You don't find male and female toilets on a plane. Have some imagination. The world of the future does not have to be the world of the past. We move on.

[Togo]

//You don't find male and female disabled toilets. You don't find male and female toilets on a plane//

Do they all share the same space ...at the same time?

[pixie374]

Yes, ellipsis. And the majority of women would like to. We don't wish to move backwards.

[Togo]

Animal, Vegetable, Miserable.

[Ellipsis]

Backwards to what? Moving backwards does not sound imaginative ...

[237SJ]

Ellipses - re your post at 17:11 there are disabled toilets on modern twin aisle aircraft these days.

[pixie374]

Moving backwards is not "imaginative", ellipsis. I agree.
Women are allowed separate spaces, for safety, privacy, comfort, dignity.
Personally, I am only bothered with safety. Maybe when men stop attacking women on such a hug scale (in general, not individually) and the stats are more 50/50, I wouldn't mind- although others would.
So, why do you want to go back to stereotypes? Women have fought for centuries to be allowed spaces where men can't go in... for obvious reasons. Those haven't actually changed.
What do you really want?

[Togo]

// Women have fought for centuries to be allowed spaces where men can't go in... for obvious reasons.//

Now they have them ... in the main, are men allowed to have the same? Men's clubs for instance, or schools maybe, or sports?

[pixie374]

Of course, Togo. And they do. I'm referring to safety more than competition though.

[Togo]

// I'm referring to safety more than competition though.//

So am I . :))