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Is The Working Class Its Own Worst Enemy?
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Many years ago I read, "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists," by Robert Tressell, which left a lasting impression on me. I still come across the same attitudes today, as portrayed in that novel, and am convinced that we in the working class, tend to have a herd mentality, and follow leaders that are not leading us to a green and promised land.
Well, do you agree?
Ruby?
Well, do you agree?
Ruby?
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I totally agree, Theland. It is an excellent book and shows how working people are sceptical of democratic socialism. They would rather trust leaders to supposedly look after their interests, than live in a participatary democracy where they actually would have to take part in running local affairs and voting in referenda on national affairs. People seem to prefer to leave politics to politicians and then complain about them.
Hi
Yes I read the book and like you it profoundly influenced my political ideas. However it was 25 years plus since I read it so my recollection of the book and how I interpreted the meanings may be affected by time and other later influences.
I recall feeling sorrow at how the workers were exploited and that progress could only be achieved by unification through a trade union movement. I do not recall that the workers were portrayed as herd like, rather that they were so oppressed that they were caught up only at a micro level, concerned with they next wage, rather than considering that if they collectively refused to accept reduced wages, the employers would be forced into providing a living wage.
I would imagine if I re read it now, I might have a very different take on it. I was given my own copy by my Marxist Grandfather, lent it to a friend and never got it back. I think I will have to go and get another copy and give it another read
Yes I read the book and like you it profoundly influenced my political ideas. However it was 25 years plus since I read it so my recollection of the book and how I interpreted the meanings may be affected by time and other later influences.
I recall feeling sorrow at how the workers were exploited and that progress could only be achieved by unification through a trade union movement. I do not recall that the workers were portrayed as herd like, rather that they were so oppressed that they were caught up only at a micro level, concerned with they next wage, rather than considering that if they collectively refused to accept reduced wages, the employers would be forced into providing a living wage.
I would imagine if I re read it now, I might have a very different take on it. I was given my own copy by my Marxist Grandfather, lent it to a friend and never got it back. I think I will have to go and get another copy and give it another read
As for the question as to whether the working class have a herd like mentality and our leaders, leading us not to the green and promised land
Herd like, well we are all social creatures who are influenced by our interaction with others. Social grouping creates a sum being greater than the parts - think Ants. So we share out tasks, some go off and hunt, some gather and some lead. Hopefully the division of labour is based on ability. So whilst busy going hunting (holding down a 9-5 job in an office) and gathering (picking up my shopping at supermarket), I leave the leading to those who have put themseleves forward and who have been chosen via the electoral system, or through media, advertising etc, etc.
Where are the leaders taking us? Will have to come back to that as off to my hunter day job
Herd like, well we are all social creatures who are influenced by our interaction with others. Social grouping creates a sum being greater than the parts - think Ants. So we share out tasks, some go off and hunt, some gather and some lead. Hopefully the division of labour is based on ability. So whilst busy going hunting (holding down a 9-5 job in an office) and gathering (picking up my shopping at supermarket), I leave the leading to those who have put themseleves forward and who have been chosen via the electoral system, or through media, advertising etc, etc.
Where are the leaders taking us? Will have to come back to that as off to my hunter day job
What an extraordinary discussion for an early Monday morning! Well done, Theland.
As literature, RTP is pretty poor, with no character development and other weaknesses. As politics, it leaves out any possibility of workers taking initiatives through trade unions or politically. But it does examine how capital pulls the wool over labour. And the stuff about privatisation and public ownership should - but won't - shame New Labour.
But I'm mostly still shaking my head at reading this stream; hope is not lost!
As literature, RTP is pretty poor, with no character development and other weaknesses. As politics, it leaves out any possibility of workers taking initiatives through trade unions or politically. But it does examine how capital pulls the wool over labour. And the stuff about privatisation and public ownership should - but won't - shame New Labour.
But I'm mostly still shaking my head at reading this stream; hope is not lost!
To our leaders
Our political leaders, well we kind of have a choice although once you get past the individuals and look at policy given New Labour is so far right, there isn't much choice between them and the Conservatives.
I am reluctant to trash politicians as all liars etc. For two reasons, one I imagine that on the whole they are as good, bad and indifferent as any group of workers, such as Drs, Bank clerks and Teachers. some dedicated and conscientious all the way through to downright shifty and dishonest. I do not expect greater integrity from politicians than I do anyone who works in the public service. Furthermore, I do believe that if I am so discontent with politicians I could always do something about it such as become far more active myself in my political party, rather than staying at home just moaning.
Capitalism/Commercialism, probably more effective at leading us (whatever our socio economic class) herd like to, if not our slaughter at least to paying a lot for the so called greener grass. I don't know if I would maintain that money is the route of all evil but, our acquisitive natures which stood us in such good stead when we were a more basic culture and needed to physically fight off predators, does seem to be a bit of our undoing now. Much as I try to resist the notion I can buy my happiness, I was tempted to ditch my mobile phone, PDA and Camera all because I could have it all in one Apple -very insidious and nearly all pervasive is the notion that you have to have the biggest, brightest shiniest to be fulfilled, admired and respected. No notion that fulfilment may be attainable in other ways, more expensive in effort but cheaper in cost.
Oh and our leaders of fashion, who does resit them, just need to check out some of your old photos to see how your clothes and hairstyle change overtime without any conscious effort on your part, even when you do not think you are a fashion victim.
Our political leaders, well we kind of have a choice although once you get past the individuals and look at policy given New Labour is so far right, there isn't much choice between them and the Conservatives.
I am reluctant to trash politicians as all liars etc. For two reasons, one I imagine that on the whole they are as good, bad and indifferent as any group of workers, such as Drs, Bank clerks and Teachers. some dedicated and conscientious all the way through to downright shifty and dishonest. I do not expect greater integrity from politicians than I do anyone who works in the public service. Furthermore, I do believe that if I am so discontent with politicians I could always do something about it such as become far more active myself in my political party, rather than staying at home just moaning.
Capitalism/Commercialism, probably more effective at leading us (whatever our socio economic class) herd like to, if not our slaughter at least to paying a lot for the so called greener grass. I don't know if I would maintain that money is the route of all evil but, our acquisitive natures which stood us in such good stead when we were a more basic culture and needed to physically fight off predators, does seem to be a bit of our undoing now. Much as I try to resist the notion I can buy my happiness, I was tempted to ditch my mobile phone, PDA and Camera all because I could have it all in one Apple -very insidious and nearly all pervasive is the notion that you have to have the biggest, brightest shiniest to be fulfilled, admired and respected. No notion that fulfilment may be attainable in other ways, more expensive in effort but cheaper in cost.
Oh and our leaders of fashion, who does resit them, just need to check out some of your old photos to see how your clothes and hairstyle change overtime without any conscious effort on your part, even when you do not think you are a fashion victim.
Finally to moral and spiritual guidance through our leaders. Well my morality is pretty much shaped by Christianity, as I have said before I am not a Christian but was brought up in that faith so it has had a massive influence. For me the 10 commandments and the Lords prayer, if you can adhere to them you have a fairly good start. Then there are many more influences who guide me, family, friends, writers, philosophers, academics and others who escape me at present. As a non believer of any after life, once you are dead you are dead, same as Ants, I do not need any spiritual leader as they are not going to take me the promised land, we are here already.
So Theland, over to you now. Is there something about the working class that makes them more susceptible to being led? Who do you see as our leaders? Have they sold you false promises? Who should be leading us and why? Please do not agree with me entirely as that would be to off putting to the both of us!!!
By the way talking of books that have influcenced my understanding of society and culture, Thomas Hardy. Tess of the D`Urbervilles was the most significant influence on me becoming a feminist. (apart from being a women in a mans world).
So Theland, over to you now. Is there something about the working class that makes them more susceptible to being led? Who do you see as our leaders? Have they sold you false promises? Who should be leading us and why? Please do not agree with me entirely as that would be to off putting to the both of us!!!
By the way talking of books that have influcenced my understanding of society and culture, Thomas Hardy. Tess of the D`Urbervilles was the most significant influence on me becoming a feminist. (apart from being a women in a mans world).
cesdlv
I am glad you said that. I was thinking yesterday that I must have read the book at least twice but couldn't really remember the characters or the story line. Whilst it was many years since I had read it, I could recall others books that I read at about the same time with greater clarity. Presumably because as a work of literature it was not good, rather it was a moral and political tale.
Strange to discuss this on a Monday morning, surely no more strange than the other subjects that get discussed, or it won't be if Theland gets back with an answer, if not it will look decidedly odd.
I am glad you said that. I was thinking yesterday that I must have read the book at least twice but couldn't really remember the characters or the story line. Whilst it was many years since I had read it, I could recall others books that I read at about the same time with greater clarity. Presumably because as a work of literature it was not good, rather it was a moral and political tale.
Strange to discuss this on a Monday morning, surely no more strange than the other subjects that get discussed, or it won't be if Theland gets back with an answer, if not it will look decidedly odd.
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