The Perils Of Privatisation - Part X
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Atheism's biggest lie?
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Thinking about a different thread I wondered if a point deserved a question of it's own.
It is often said that religion causes wars, so can anyone please name a truly religious war in the last 200 years? Or even beyond that?
It is often said that religion causes wars, so can anyone please name a truly religious war in the last 200 years? Or even beyond that?
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Hello Firetracie, I would give you a comprehensive answer, but Everton is cracking the whip, and he�s a hard taskmaster.
Suffice to say that Atheism isn�t a belief - rather it's a lack of belief - and religion is fantasy. Nevertheless, it causes untold misery in this world, and it does play a major role in many bloody conflicts. Without it, the world would be a better place.
Suffice to say that Atheism isn�t a belief - rather it's a lack of belief - and religion is fantasy. Nevertheless, it causes untold misery in this world, and it does play a major role in many bloody conflicts. Without it, the world would be a better place.
123everton. You've already had an answer to your question, surely. That answer is; no, we can't name a "truly religious war" - not in the sense that you mean. What I and others have tried to do is to understand and comment on your reasons for asking the question in the first place - and in doing so I think it's quite in order to look at the heading, not just the question itself. You continue to assert that "atheists" - and you imply "all atheists" - claim, simplistically, that religion causes wars. Well, perhaps some do (although nobody I know does). But everybody here seems to accept that it is wrong to do so. So move past this straw man and criticise, if you must, the real arguments for atheism, which must have been stated on this site many times.
What still others have tried to do is cite conflicts in which religion has played a part or been a contributory factor - which I agree is not an answer to your question as stated. There; will that do?
What still others have tried to do is cite conflicts in which religion has played a part or been a contributory factor - which I agree is not an answer to your question as stated. There; will that do?
Tom's right, Everton It seems most here have concluded that religion is often a contributory factor rather than the sole cause of war, so you've had your answer. What more can be said? What further evidence are you looking for?
I know alot of very happy believers and i know alot of very unhappy non-believers (I meet an awful lot more),
As a happy non-believer I know an awful lot of unhappy believers too. Perhaps it's the burden of sin and the thought of their possible punishment that's getting them down. Cheer up - it may never happen!
I know alot of very happy believers and i know alot of very unhappy non-believers (I meet an awful lot more),
As a happy non-believer I know an awful lot of unhappy believers too. Perhaps it's the burden of sin and the thought of their possible punishment that's getting them down. Cheer up - it may never happen!
Octtavius posted links demonstrating the point, I'm surprised how touchy some of the respondents are speaking as a "creotard" I have to say that the great debunkers have (perhaps) face up to being debunked.
It appears to me that governments start wars, they get people to fight them and they fight them for their own reasons namely religious or in the absence of religion political ideology. There certainly is a glaring absence of religion in the wars of the last 200 years we've reached the 17th century and no further, perhaps it's not religion that should be banned, but politics...
I'm being ironic there.
"It may never happen" what may never happen? You substantiating a post on this thread?
Tongue in cheek so please don't go off on one!
So why don't you post a thread describing this atheist utopia and how it would be achieved?
It appears to me that governments start wars, they get people to fight them and they fight them for their own reasons namely religious or in the absence of religion political ideology. There certainly is a glaring absence of religion in the wars of the last 200 years we've reached the 17th century and no further, perhaps it's not religion that should be banned, but politics...
I'm being ironic there.
"It may never happen" what may never happen? You substantiating a post on this thread?
Tongue in cheek so please don't go off on one!
So why don't you post a thread describing this atheist utopia and how it would be achieved?
I presume you're talking to me? Your tongue in cheek is becoming rather tiresome, Everton. I've given my opinion, and I really don't know what else you expect me to say, so why don't you tell me and then perhaps we can put a stop to this continual nonsense from you once and for all. You say things like this practically every time we meet up, but no one else seems to have this problem with my posts, so perhaps you don't read them properly. Now, what do you want me to substantiate?
Please don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say the world would be a Utopia without religion - I said it would be a better place - and in my opinion, it would.
Why tell me to post a question about a world without religion? If you want one posted, then post it.
And I'm not going into one - but depending upon your answer, I might, so wotchit!! :o)
Please don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say the world would be a Utopia without religion - I said it would be a better place - and in my opinion, it would.
Why tell me to post a question about a world without religion? If you want one posted, then post it.
And I'm not going into one - but depending upon your answer, I might, so wotchit!! :o)
Religion makes people unhappy and causes untold misery, the world would be a better place without religion. How?
None of thes are related to the question, but no examples have been given either.
These points you raise may be worth a thread of their own, so why don't you post it?
I'm sarcastic (don't take it to heart) I never do (I like a bit of sarkyness) even you've indulged a little there (2 post ago) so get off ya high horse and drink your milk.
Cheer up they're only pixels and it's not a manifesto.
None of thes are related to the question, but no examples have been given either.
These points you raise may be worth a thread of their own, so why don't you post it?
I'm sarcastic (don't take it to heart) I never do (I like a bit of sarkyness) even you've indulged a little there (2 post ago) so get off ya high horse and drink your milk.
Cheer up they're only pixels and it's not a manifesto.
Why do not people consider everyday killing in all the countries of the world. Murders with no obvious motive at all. If you consider, I think over the history put all the people killed in the wars on one side and on the other side people killed in day to day life. Later one would out number the first very easily. For example all these teenagers being killed in our cities (mainly London). Now someone tell me how the religion is involved in that. Even if there were no religions, these killings would not be affected at all.
Atheists would prefer a world without religion because then the entire global population would be in adherence to their own religion, that of non-belief. That smacks of intolerance to me, and is remarkably similar to the intolerance expressed by those religious fundamentalists who would rid the world of anyone and everyone who differs from their belief.
A world without religion would not be a better place because politics, greed, ambition, corruption, cultural and ethnic traditions would still exist. The natural human desire to kill or control someone from a different sex, family, country, nation, tribe, gang or party of town, would still exist.
Those that follow their own moral code be it based on religion or not, will prosper and bloom with their fellow international counterparts. Those that do not have any moral stance (including them that cause hatred in the name of religion) will still spoil it for the rest, just under a different name/cause/ideology.
The main argument that atheists use against religion is that they cause hatred to others. This is not too dissimilar to the athiestic views of the relgioius and vise versa. The biggest lie comes from those who use religion as a basis of war to conceal the real motives, and those who then blinldy believe that religion has caused war. Guns don�t kill people, people do.
A world without religion would not be a better place because politics, greed, ambition, corruption, cultural and ethnic traditions would still exist. The natural human desire to kill or control someone from a different sex, family, country, nation, tribe, gang or party of town, would still exist.
Those that follow their own moral code be it based on religion or not, will prosper and bloom with their fellow international counterparts. Those that do not have any moral stance (including them that cause hatred in the name of religion) will still spoil it for the rest, just under a different name/cause/ideology.
The main argument that atheists use against religion is that they cause hatred to others. This is not too dissimilar to the athiestic views of the relgioius and vise versa. The biggest lie comes from those who use religion as a basis of war to conceal the real motives, and those who then blinldy believe that religion has caused war. Guns don�t kill people, people do.
Everton, Tom is right. However, I'll answer this and then if you want to pursue it further, perhaps you'll post that thread you want posted.
Firstly, although I did say religion causes untold misery in this world, in response to your contention that you know a lot of happy believers, I said I know a lot of believers who are unhappy - not that religion makes people unhappy - so do get it right, Everton.
How would the world be a better place without religion? Yes, we would still have human greed, etc, as Octavius says, and people would still be murdered, as Keyplus says, but people wouldn't be blowing themselves, and others, to smithereens in the name of Allah, neither would extremists be calling for the death of the infidel, or ranting on about cartoons and teddy bears, and neither would Muslim be fighting Muslim in the middle east. Think Bosnia - or Northern Ireland where the troubles have gone a lot farther than politics, with neighbour pitched against neighbour - even to the extent that children on their way to school have been attacked. On a lesser scale, what about the children who are orphaned because their Jehovah Witness parents refuse blood transfusions - and on a greater scale, what about the holocaust? If religion had never existed there would be no Jews, no Muslims, no Christians, and therefore we would never have had the division that religion causes. There you have examples.
This may not be related to the question, but do bear in mind that you're the one who asked for further clarification, Everton.
By the way, if you read my posts properly, which you clearly don't, you would know by now that I never take AB to heart. :o)
Firstly, although I did say religion causes untold misery in this world, in response to your contention that you know a lot of happy believers, I said I know a lot of believers who are unhappy - not that religion makes people unhappy - so do get it right, Everton.
How would the world be a better place without religion? Yes, we would still have human greed, etc, as Octavius says, and people would still be murdered, as Keyplus says, but people wouldn't be blowing themselves, and others, to smithereens in the name of Allah, neither would extremists be calling for the death of the infidel, or ranting on about cartoons and teddy bears, and neither would Muslim be fighting Muslim in the middle east. Think Bosnia - or Northern Ireland where the troubles have gone a lot farther than politics, with neighbour pitched against neighbour - even to the extent that children on their way to school have been attacked. On a lesser scale, what about the children who are orphaned because their Jehovah Witness parents refuse blood transfusions - and on a greater scale, what about the holocaust? If religion had never existed there would be no Jews, no Muslims, no Christians, and therefore we would never have had the division that religion causes. There you have examples.
This may not be related to the question, but do bear in mind that you're the one who asked for further clarification, Everton.
By the way, if you read my posts properly, which you clearly don't, you would know by now that I never take AB to heart. :o)
I's hard to believe that if religion didn't exist there'd be less war. Surely it's just in our nature, and if there was no religion we'd simply find some other justification for killing each other.
On the other hand, for there to be no religion, that presupposes that our nature would be completely different anyway, so maybe if we didn't feel the need to believe in gods, we wouldn't feel the need to kill each other either.
On the other hand, for there to be no religion, that presupposes that our nature would be completely different anyway, so maybe if we didn't feel the need to believe in gods, we wouldn't feel the need to kill each other either.
Naomi, your three examples�.
Bosnia was about ethnic cleansing, referring primarily to a deep (and long) resentment with Albanian people. Most Bosnians and many Croats, western politicians and human rights organisations claimed that the war was a war of Serbian and Croatian aggression, while Serbs often considered it a civil war. You are asserting this was religious because many of the Albanians were Muslim?
The troubles in Northern Ireland were about nationalism and attachment or detachment from/to the United Kingdom/Republic, and the withdrawal of the �Queens troops� from Irish territory. Are you saying this was a religious conflict because the Queen is the head of the Church of England and Southern Ireland was Catholic?
Jehovah�s Witness are a rule unto themselves. Yes they inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on their own people by disallowing medical treatment, but this hardly counts as acts of aggression towards �others� outside of the religion.
I would hazard that the suicide bombers would quite easily be brainwashed into doing the same thing in the name of another cause, take the Japanese Red Army for instance, no religious cause there, merely military and territorial aggression on political grounds.
Bosnia was about ethnic cleansing, referring primarily to a deep (and long) resentment with Albanian people. Most Bosnians and many Croats, western politicians and human rights organisations claimed that the war was a war of Serbian and Croatian aggression, while Serbs often considered it a civil war. You are asserting this was religious because many of the Albanians were Muslim?
The troubles in Northern Ireland were about nationalism and attachment or detachment from/to the United Kingdom/Republic, and the withdrawal of the �Queens troops� from Irish territory. Are you saying this was a religious conflict because the Queen is the head of the Church of England and Southern Ireland was Catholic?
Jehovah�s Witness are a rule unto themselves. Yes they inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on their own people by disallowing medical treatment, but this hardly counts as acts of aggression towards �others� outside of the religion.
I would hazard that the suicide bombers would quite easily be brainwashed into doing the same thing in the name of another cause, take the Japanese Red Army for instance, no religious cause there, merely military and territorial aggression on political grounds.
I agree the answer is no (and, unsurprisingly, felt that way to begin with), we have had several examples of "religious" wars all of which have been pooh pooed (so far) one of which has even ben repeated and another cited and then altered by it's own author.
I've been accused of setting traps, yet I've brodened the scope of the question and I've responded to parts wholly unrelated to the question.
Atheists can be a very touchy lot when they don't get their way, history teaches us this fact, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Hitler.....
You huff and you puff and you still can't blow the straw man down.
The reason for asking the question BTW is because it's a question and answer site.
I've been accused of setting traps, yet I've brodened the scope of the question and I've responded to parts wholly unrelated to the question.
Atheists can be a very touchy lot when they don't get their way, history teaches us this fact, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Hitler.....
You huff and you puff and you still can't blow the straw man down.
The reason for asking the question BTW is because it's a question and answer site.
Oh dear, I hoped I had left behind all these non-arguments when I escaped from the R&S site, but here we go again.
everton you might clear the air by naming one religious war which has been invented by atheists.
firetracie you have a strange definition of 'lie'. Am I lying when I say that Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist?
Even theists aren't 'lying' when they claim that God does. They are merely expressing a belief in a supernatural creature which does magical things and for whose existence there is no evidence. They are not lying, merely unable to substantiate that belief. (And please don't reply by saying that I cannot prove that God doesn't exist either. If you do I will just say 'teapots'. If you don't know what that means I'll have to tell you.)
Of course there willl still be evil in the world (murder, rape, greed, child abuse etc) if religion disappeared. What we would be relieved of are those extra evils that religion has imported. Among them are...
...suicide mombers, 9/11, 7/7, Crusades, witch-hunts, Gunpowder plot, Indian partition, Israeli/Palestine wars, Serb/Croat massacres, persecution of Jews as 'Christ killers', Northern Ireland 'troubles', honour killings, televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money...
Some of you will recognise where I got that list from, though any of us could have compiled it for ourselves.
everton you might clear the air by naming one religious war which has been invented by atheists.
firetracie you have a strange definition of 'lie'. Am I lying when I say that Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist?
Even theists aren't 'lying' when they claim that God does. They are merely expressing a belief in a supernatural creature which does magical things and for whose existence there is no evidence. They are not lying, merely unable to substantiate that belief. (And please don't reply by saying that I cannot prove that God doesn't exist either. If you do I will just say 'teapots'. If you don't know what that means I'll have to tell you.)
Of course there willl still be evil in the world (murder, rape, greed, child abuse etc) if religion disappeared. What we would be relieved of are those extra evils that religion has imported. Among them are...
...suicide mombers, 9/11, 7/7, Crusades, witch-hunts, Gunpowder plot, Indian partition, Israeli/Palestine wars, Serb/Croat massacres, persecution of Jews as 'Christ killers', Northern Ireland 'troubles', honour killings, televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money...
Some of you will recognise where I got that list from, though any of us could have compiled it for ourselves.
My dear Chakka as an R&S refuge you do keep coming back, even if it's only to tell us you're taking your bat and ball home.
The list you've offered has been dealt with in the previous posts, and Octavius has posted a link to demonstrate the point raised.
The question to be exact is based largely on the misconceptions one comes across reguarly on letters pages or on radio phone in shows. I've actually slept since the original post on another thread inspired me to submit this were it was said that religion causes wars.
Toodles.
The list you've offered has been dealt with in the previous posts, and Octavius has posted a link to demonstrate the point raised.
The question to be exact is based largely on the misconceptions one comes across reguarly on letters pages or on radio phone in shows. I've actually slept since the original post on another thread inspired me to submit this were it was said that religion causes wars.
Toodles.
Well chakka this is repetition of course, since I have responded to most of those previously (on here and other threads) and you clearly have not read any of them. I thought you left because your repetitive point was listened to and answered, but not according to your liking?
If such atrocities were to lie at the feet of religion, then where were all the atheists in putting a stop to it all? Cowering behind the religious aggressors and defenders? Or just being lethargic or objecting consciencously?
It seems atheism pleads religion has such power in matters of war and atrocities, and perhaps it is this power and the ability for religious people to fight in the name of their beliefs (and please do not assume I refer to �terrorist acts�) that makes the general solitary atheist feel a bit impotent?
If such atrocities were to lie at the feet of religion, then where were all the atheists in putting a stop to it all? Cowering behind the religious aggressors and defenders? Or just being lethargic or objecting consciencously?
It seems atheism pleads religion has such power in matters of war and atrocities, and perhaps it is this power and the ability for religious people to fight in the name of their beliefs (and please do not assume I refer to �terrorist acts�) that makes the general solitary atheist feel a bit impotent?
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