a form of racism

[The Sherman]

Ok always wondered this and I know it is an old argument but.......

the word p@ki and ni**ers if pakistani and black people can say those words why can't white people?

Either we're all the same and can use those words or we're not and then in some way not equal. Now I know there are ways to say words and if I say p@ki barsteward then thats not acceptable but what about black people who always say things like "whats up ni**er?"

any thoughts?

[jake-the-peg]

The subtext is that it's a deeming word but when I use it to you and it's obvious that it can apply to me too then it unites us in a shared fight.

That doesn't mean to say that Pakistani's or black people can't be racist. I've heard some very racist opinions voiced by some ethic minorities in this country about other ethnic minorities.

[The Sherman]

The reason I was asking was I saw a horrfic program on sky called BNP wives and it was one of their arguments for using the word and i sort of cant see why they cant say it. Howvere the only problem is they will always use it in a negative context which i dont agree with! oh its so confusing!!

[terambulan]

'cause the pak1s and n188ers want an excuse to sue you for big bucks so they can languish back in their homelands.

[The Sherman]

yes terambulan thats so insightful, Its like everything i've ever thought i'd known somehow achieved a higher state of clarity thanks to your insights.

very inspiring.

[hc4361]

Some black people and Pakistanis would be hugely offended to be called those words, regardless of who said them.
I expect you have been in a circle of friends where it is acceptable to call each other names you would be offended by if a stranger called you by that very same name.
I don't think I've heard Pakistanis calling each other the P word, though. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have heard an Indian woman call a Pakistani woman the P word but they were definitely not being friendly and it wasn't okay at all.

[craft1948]

when I worked in London I sat at a desk between a Jamaican and a Nigerian - I got on fine with both of them but have never heard such racial abuse as what they said to and about each other.....

[andy-hughes]

As Mani says, black people have re-possessed the 'N' word to make it a term of affection among themselves - which takes all the poison out of the use of the word.

However, woe betide a white person who tries to use the expression in the same way. A black friend of mine advised how a group of his black friends used the 'N' word frequently to each other, but when a white friend used the same expression, he got a punch in the mouth for his troube!

Double standards? maybe - it's an on-going debate.

[New Judge]

The argument used to be that it was not so much what was said, but the context in which it was said and the meaning that was attached. However, it�s moved on apace.

White people are now deemed to be inherently racist by definition. Furthermore it is only they that can be racist. Therefore if any of these terms are used by them it can only be in a derogatory, disrespectful, racist fashion. These views, which have been held for some time in some quarters, were amply aided and abetted by the ridiculous McPherson report into the handling by the police of the death of Stephen Lawrence. This was the report that coined the phrase �institutional racism� (which set the Metropolitan Police Service back twenty years) and deemed that a racist incident is one which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person [whether connected with the incident or not].

So the context now no longer matters so long as the terms are uttered by a white person (as was demonstrated when the Prince of Wales used one of them to refer to one of his friends). There are plenty of uninvolved third party activists ready to take offence on behalf of somebody else who may or may not be offended themselves.

In contrast, non-white people, of course cannot under any circumstances be capable of racist thoughts or deeds, so the use of these terms by them is perfectly acceptable.

[jake-the-peg]

You have full permission to go up to another white bloke in a pub and say "How's it going honkey?"

But please, please, please let us know first so we can get it up on YouTube :C)

[terambulan]

they're names like offensive words....if someone swears at me I will swear back. stix & stones etc.

I get name-calling on here but it doesn't disrupt my day 'cause I dont know you and your entitled to your opinion, as I am.

I have friends from Pakistan & India & dont call them derogatory names unless they attack first.

[ludwig]

Basically it's ok to insult yourself, but it's not ok for someone else to insult you.

For example, if the woman sitting next to me at work says 'Hey Ludwig, this morning I looked in the mirror and saw a fat wrinkled old bag staring back at me' - that would be ok, and we'd both have a good laugh about it.

However, if I was to say out of the blue, 'Hey Marjorie, what's it like to look in the mirror every morning and see a fat wrinkled old bag staring back at you?'. That would be unacceptable, and I'd probably expect to get the sack for it.

[New Judge]

But the black and asian people are not addressing themselves, ludwig, they're addressing others of their race.

What you're really saying is it is OK for black pople to insult other black people, but not for white people to do likewise. A sure fire route towards (further) segregation if ever ther was one.

[Octavius]

The Sherman. Your post and comment is just typical of a typical atheist.

[hc4361]

New Judge, people have been prosecuted for racially abusing white people.
Viskovic Mladen is a Croatian who was fined for racially abusing a Scottish doorman, for example.
Here, Asian men were charged with racially aggravated assault on white men:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_an d_west/7888732.stm
Here a Muslim is guilty of stirring up racial hatred:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6133516.stm

It is quite untrue to say non-white people cannot be charged with racism, or that white people cannot be victims of racism.

[chakka35]

Oh really, Octavius, what a cheap comment. When have you ever heard such stuff from me, just for one?

A graceful apology to atheists in general might be in order.

[Gormless]

New Judge is spot on. Black on White racism simply cannot happen, or at least if it does, prosecutions are vanishingly rare. Racism is a white man's crime.

I do wonder why it started though.

[Octavius]

Thank you chakka for demonstrating the point I was trying to make. Does it only miff you that I said it, being a Catholic an'all? If jake had said it, would you have had the same reaction? I doubt it.

You assumed it was a slur from a reliioinist.

I meant nothing by what I said above, I was just hoping that someone might rise to that bait, which is germane to the original q, but from a slightly different angle.

[New Judge]

Yes, hc it is untrue to say that prosecution (or simply castigation) of non-whites for racism does not happen, and I stand corrected.

However, as gormless implies, it is astonishingly rare, and I would say the ratio probably exceeds 1,000 to 1.