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Re-education
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So how do you differentiate between those with extremist views and the moderates, Rev? Keyplus is a family man, hardworking, pays his taxes, but if you read his posts you'll find his views far from moderate, so how do you square that?
I read this in a different thread, so how do you deal with people who are quiet law abiding citizens who hold views others dislike?
Re-education was suggested, but how could this be implemented or enforced?
Is it only Muslims in need of this re-education?
How would you define which views are "moderate" and which views are "extremist"?
Is forceable re-education (brain washing) not extremist?
I read this in a different thread, so how do you deal with people who are quiet law abiding citizens who hold views others dislike?
Re-education was suggested, but how could this be implemented or enforced?
Is it only Muslims in need of this re-education?
How would you define which views are "moderate" and which views are "extremist"?
Is forceable re-education (brain washing) not extremist?
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Keyplus is not to be underestimated as a missionary - he seems to have convinced many people that we are on the verge of an Islamic takeover, by approximately the end of next week.
I imagine incitement to acts of terrorism would qualify as 'extreme', but the laws we have now seem adequate to deal with it. Brainwashing... well, I don't know. There was some suggestion that it was used on the killers of Jamie Bulger successfully and therefore might work on these two kids convicted of torture. If so it would certainly be better than just torturing them back again, as some ABers apparently want to do.
http://www.guardian.c...bulger-rehabilitation
But that's for children whose minds are still developing anyway. For adults? I'm not so sure. Nobody seems to have succeeded in reprogramming paedophiles. Could they do it to Muslims? Probably about as successfully as they could do it to atheists. The latter might make for interesting viewing, as in A Clockwork Orange, with hardline non-believers having their eyes opened, literally, as they are persuaded to accept God's grace... but somehow I don't see it happening, even in a formally Anglican country like this.
I imagine incitement to acts of terrorism would qualify as 'extreme', but the laws we have now seem adequate to deal with it. Brainwashing... well, I don't know. There was some suggestion that it was used on the killers of Jamie Bulger successfully and therefore might work on these two kids convicted of torture. If so it would certainly be better than just torturing them back again, as some ABers apparently want to do.
http://www.guardian.c...bulger-rehabilitation
But that's for children whose minds are still developing anyway. For adults? I'm not so sure. Nobody seems to have succeeded in reprogramming paedophiles. Could they do it to Muslims? Probably about as successfully as they could do it to atheists. The latter might make for interesting viewing, as in A Clockwork Orange, with hardline non-believers having their eyes opened, literally, as they are persuaded to accept God's grace... but somehow I don't see it happening, even in a formally Anglican country like this.
Everton, this question is completely misleading. You infer that a proposal has been made that quiet law abiding citizens whose views people dislike be re-educated - and you imply that the suggested re-education could be something akin to enforced brainwashing. That was never suggested and it simply isn't true. The actual suggestion was to re-educate the people who want to blow us up to enable them to integrate and become responsible members of our society - and that is something quite different to what you're saying. I don't know whether you are failing to read posts properly, as is your wont, or whether you are deliberately trying to cause unnecessary conflict here again, but whichever way, you're not only taking those who attempt in all good faith to answer your questions for fools, you're also making a complete fool of yourself.
Naomi, re-education was the euphemism for the camps in Cambodia, how do you make somebody become friends with you?
Here's the challenge, how would you get a Muslim (we'll say a man, fits the profile) he owns a fruit and veg shop, his kids are well behaved at school, he pays his taxes etc etc.
He believes women should dress modestly, how are you going to convince him of the values and virtues of the page 3 stunner?
How are you going to convince him of the validity in the practice of many minor T.V celebs in taking off all their clothes, Konnie Huq, Jennifer Ellison (she can't keep hers on), in lads mags?
There was even a show on T.V where a former children's T.V presenter wanted to become a pole dancer to improve her image, seriously 100 years of women's suffrage and this is what we get.
What does integration mean, wear clothes like what we wear?
Is that for both sexes, or just the women?
Is it just Muslims in need of this education?
What if they don't volunteer or refuse to be educated (indoctrinated?) into your/our way of thinking?
To my mind, your educational solution is abhorrent, killers go to hospital as a rule anyway so there's no need to legislate, it denies people the right to choose, it denies people the right to think their own thoughts.
I say the best sermon is a good example and that is how better integration is achieved.
Here's the challenge, how would you get a Muslim (we'll say a man, fits the profile) he owns a fruit and veg shop, his kids are well behaved at school, he pays his taxes etc etc.
He believes women should dress modestly, how are you going to convince him of the values and virtues of the page 3 stunner?
How are you going to convince him of the validity in the practice of many minor T.V celebs in taking off all their clothes, Konnie Huq, Jennifer Ellison (she can't keep hers on), in lads mags?
There was even a show on T.V where a former children's T.V presenter wanted to become a pole dancer to improve her image, seriously 100 years of women's suffrage and this is what we get.
What does integration mean, wear clothes like what we wear?
Is that for both sexes, or just the women?
Is it just Muslims in need of this education?
What if they don't volunteer or refuse to be educated (indoctrinated?) into your/our way of thinking?
To my mind, your educational solution is abhorrent, killers go to hospital as a rule anyway so there's no need to legislate, it denies people the right to choose, it denies people the right to think their own thoughts.
I say the best sermon is a good example and that is how better integration is achieved.
-- answer removed --
jno, //Everton has been entirely polite.//
Really? Well, I suppose your assessment can only depend upon your own personal values, but let's look at this. This is the second time within a few days that Everton has used my words to form a question, and his original question this time, deliberately concocted from two different posts, is designed specifically to mislead the reader. Overlooking his accusations on the other thread of Nazism, his disgusting implication that mine is a 'final solution', his penchant for reading what isn't there, and his vile insults in a myriad of previous posts, including the outrageous example that was removed, he now implies that my proposal carries with it shades of Cambodia and brainwashing, and says he abhors the solution. The fact is that solution was never suggested, and in his eagerness to malign, he's never actually bothered to ask with any hint of civility what my proposal involves. Anyone of principle reading his posts really could easily be forgiven for thinking he has an underlying agenda going on, but perhaps you've missed that.
//It has been argued on other threads that immigrants ought to assimilate the culture of Britain. That includes Page 3 girls.//
Although I don't doubt you, I don't believe I've ever seen a debate here where this idea has been promoted, and it was certainly never an issue within current discussions, so like Wizard, I have no idea where Everton is coming from - or going to - with that.
By the way, the answers to the questions you were so impatient for me to address have been sitting on the 'Why or how did Christianity become a Religion' thread since Friday morning awaiting your response. I can only assume you've missed those too.
Really? Well, I suppose your assessment can only depend upon your own personal values, but let's look at this. This is the second time within a few days that Everton has used my words to form a question, and his original question this time, deliberately concocted from two different posts, is designed specifically to mislead the reader. Overlooking his accusations on the other thread of Nazism, his disgusting implication that mine is a 'final solution', his penchant for reading what isn't there, and his vile insults in a myriad of previous posts, including the outrageous example that was removed, he now implies that my proposal carries with it shades of Cambodia and brainwashing, and says he abhors the solution. The fact is that solution was never suggested, and in his eagerness to malign, he's never actually bothered to ask with any hint of civility what my proposal involves. Anyone of principle reading his posts really could easily be forgiven for thinking he has an underlying agenda going on, but perhaps you've missed that.
//It has been argued on other threads that immigrants ought to assimilate the culture of Britain. That includes Page 3 girls.//
Although I don't doubt you, I don't believe I've ever seen a debate here where this idea has been promoted, and it was certainly never an issue within current discussions, so like Wizard, I have no idea where Everton is coming from - or going to - with that.
By the way, the answers to the questions you were so impatient for me to address have been sitting on the 'Why or how did Christianity become a Religion' thread since Friday morning awaiting your response. I can only assume you've missed those too.
123eveton, that's a biased outlook of UK society. P3 girls earn their living on those photos - they pay taxes too. As for dress code - belly dancers are clad flimsily too & often drugged to perform, by their muslim pimps. Just as much disgrace to be found both sides - neither is better.
Since muslims have 'chosen' to live and enjoy the fruits of this christian land they should abide by our laws & integrate for their own good. The mosque teachings confuse muslim youth who are already receiving education in Brit schools & uni.
In the 60s, when muslims first immigrated here, there were few mosques & far less dissent. Early muslims integrated & were appreciative of opportunities these shores offered - they weren't forced here!
Since muslims have 'chosen' to live and enjoy the fruits of this christian land they should abide by our laws & integrate for their own good. The mosque teachings confuse muslim youth who are already receiving education in Brit schools & uni.
In the 60s, when muslims first immigrated here, there were few mosques & far less dissent. Early muslims integrated & were appreciative of opportunities these shores offered - they weren't forced here!
"This is the second time in a few days that Everton has used my words to form a question" you would never do thing like that would you, would you?
You describe it as rude, but, you should note I have at no point said "Naomi24 said this" I have asked only to discuss the issues, not the author.
I view your opinions on this subject as fascist, regardless of all the garnish and fancy words it is (to my mind) a fascist mindset, the questions I have asked have all very reasonably been equated to previous actions by totaliterian and fascist regimes in history.
I make no apologies for these inferences.
You describe it as rude, but, you should note I have at no point said "Naomi24 said this" I have asked only to discuss the issues, not the author.
I view your opinions on this subject as fascist, regardless of all the garnish and fancy words it is (to my mind) a fascist mindset, the questions I have asked have all very reasonably been equated to previous actions by totaliterian and fascist regimes in history.
I make no apologies for these inferences.
"Civilly" or not what does your "solution" involve, I have asked quite clearly whether the have to volunteer or would there be an element of coersion?
You haven't answered any of the questions as yet, I won't hold my breath.
Tambo, I am not exhalting either side, I am merely stating that I believe that Britain has got things rughly about right with regard to the laws on race etc, and changes I would view as being negative.
The second and third parts of your post are lost on me, what do they have to do to integrate? Dissent, I don't understand, the children of the immigrants didn't ask to be born here, should they shut up?
Is the problem (cheekily) that some Muslims just don't know their place?
The people I see and hear on the media bear no resemblance to the Muslims i see and meet at and work and socially, but of course there's no copy in that.
You haven't answered any of the questions as yet, I won't hold my breath.
Tambo, I am not exhalting either side, I am merely stating that I believe that Britain has got things rughly about right with regard to the laws on race etc, and changes I would view as being negative.
The second and third parts of your post are lost on me, what do they have to do to integrate? Dissent, I don't understand, the children of the immigrants didn't ask to be born here, should they shut up?
Is the problem (cheekily) that some Muslims just don't know their place?
The people I see and hear on the media bear no resemblance to the Muslims i see and meet at and work and socially, but of course there's no copy in that.
P.S.
Incidentally, this where the paranoia about Muslim breeding and may well be the source of some these "facts" about the Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0U5Kw57iv4
Incidentally, this where the paranoia about Muslim breeding and may well be the source of some these "facts" about the Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0U5Kw57iv4
Re-education is a tricky subject. Who is to say that the views of the person wanting another to be re-educated, are correct, and the one whom they would like to re-educate, wrong ? Difference is important as otherwise there is no debate, no progress. Check out Clockwork Orange.
Obviously I'd like everyone to have the sense to see things my way, but for the benefit of society in general there needs to be non-conformity of views.
However there has to be limits since few would advocate allowing folk to preach harming others, for example. Society needs to know where the loosest limits it can tolerate are.
Obviously I'd like everyone to have the sense to see things my way, but for the benefit of society in general there needs to be non-conformity of views.
However there has to be limits since few would advocate allowing folk to preach harming others, for example. Society needs to know where the loosest limits it can tolerate are.
interesting question everton.
"how do you deal with people who are quiet law abiding citizens who hold views others dislike"
is it harmful if they don't act on those views or cause harm to others ? if it is reeducation to the common mores, then these would be ours for the making ? that doesn't really sit right with me, especially if page 3 models are the benchmark. i think the education should be centred around tolerance, acceptance and humanity. "if you don;t bleat on to me about how great your religion is, and how i should behave, then i will afford you the same courtesy."
i can't stand the intolerant negativity espoused from either side of the fence to be honest, i find attention directed solely for this purpose is a waste of energy. some people live to preach and bemoan others.
"how do you deal with people who are quiet law abiding citizens who hold views others dislike"
is it harmful if they don't act on those views or cause harm to others ? if it is reeducation to the common mores, then these would be ours for the making ? that doesn't really sit right with me, especially if page 3 models are the benchmark. i think the education should be centred around tolerance, acceptance and humanity. "if you don;t bleat on to me about how great your religion is, and how i should behave, then i will afford you the same courtesy."
i can't stand the intolerant negativity espoused from either side of the fence to be honest, i find attention directed solely for this purpose is a waste of energy. some people live to preach and bemoan others.
Everton, Actually, I will come back on this. Firstly, on the couple of occasions I have quoted you, I have quoted you practically verbatim, I have openly and honestly acknowledged the source of the quote, and unlike you, I have never deceitfully edited the content in order to deliberately misrepresent either that or its author.
Secondly, you have reached the unfounded conclusion that I hold fascist views, and you are clearly very happy to broadcast that. However, since I haven't offered my opinions and by your own admission I haven't answered your questions, I have to question both your methods and your motives in reaching your entirely unsubstantiated verdict. With your fatuous and baseless nonsense, Everton, you are, once again, meeting yourself coming back.
And no, I will not answer your questions. Other than your continuous insults, I have nothing to defend myself against, and therefore I don't intend entering into your spurious arguments again.
Secondly, you have reached the unfounded conclusion that I hold fascist views, and you are clearly very happy to broadcast that. However, since I haven't offered my opinions and by your own admission I haven't answered your questions, I have to question both your methods and your motives in reaching your entirely unsubstantiated verdict. With your fatuous and baseless nonsense, Everton, you are, once again, meeting yourself coming back.
And no, I will not answer your questions. Other than your continuous insults, I have nothing to defend myself against, and therefore I don't intend entering into your spurious arguments again.
