Listener 4847 Demeaning By Lionheart
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Birdie - Yes Muhammad and Jesus and all others were prophets. No Muslim places Muhammad above Jesus apart from believing that he is the last messenger. But every Muslim places his teachings above “present” teachings of Jesus. However if someone can bring me actual Bible given to Jesus, I will have no hesitation in believing every single word of that. But unfortunately I can’t believe every word of the people who never knew Jesus in real life and that is the reason that even Christian scholars agree that there are concoctions in the Bible present today. Another reason is that Jesus came only for the tribe of Israel and his message was only for that specific time and it is very clearly written in the Bible. Bible itself says clearly that another prophet would come after Jesus who would tell people more (and that is Muhammad). Whereas Muhammad’s teaching are not only for a specific tribe and for a specific time and we still have original teachings as well as language.
The NT "fulfilled" the prophecies of the OT. Nothing cosmic involved because the authors simply wrote it to match.
Mohammed saw a similar opportunity to have himself taken for something special. When the Jewish leaders didn't welcome him with open arms he simply invented a new faith.
Similar stuff still goes on which is why we have any number of breakaway groups from the Protestant churches through the LDS to the likes the churches of David Koresh and Jimmy Jones.
Mohammed saw a similar opportunity to have himself taken for something special. When the Jewish leaders didn't welcome him with open arms he simply invented a new faith.
Similar stuff still goes on which is why we have any number of breakaway groups from the Protestant churches through the LDS to the likes the churches of David Koresh and Jimmy Jones.
Keyplus, //No Muslim places Muhammad above Jesus apart from believing that he is the last messenger.//
That's not strictly true, is it. Mohammed is a bit of a role model, wouldn't you say?
beso, I agree. It's all pilfered from elsewhere - and that applies even to the 'original' Jewish concept of one creator god.
That's not strictly true, is it. Mohammed is a bit of a role model, wouldn't you say?
beso, I agree. It's all pilfered from elsewhere - and that applies even to the 'original' Jewish concept of one creator god.
Beso -First of all I do not agree with your point that Jewish leaders did not accept Muhammad (pbuh). For a simple reason that at the time of Muhammad there were not many Jews in Mecca as majority of the people were pagans. There were Jews in Madina but Muhammad (pbuh) did not go to Madina until after more than ten years after the beginning of his message. Then even if I agree with you for the argument sake then same Jews did not accept Jesus (pbuh) either although he was from among them.
I had a christian unbringing but a tragedy early on in life made me start to question this cruel, heartless and murderous deity. By the time I was a teenager it was plain to me that this religious stuff is a fairytale but I have no great opposition to authentic creeds that operate within the accepted parameters of Society as it seems to give many people comfort, no matter how misplaced this trust is.
I have no doubts at all that there is another existence after this.
However, I have a problem with organised religion and the concept of a single god. People who immerse themselves in organised religion seem to be exhibiting the same traits as those who follow political parties or football teams. Centuries ago decision-makers laid out a framework which they decide they like and want to identify with. They then happily adopt that established creed as their own views and beliefs. They then try to instill that framework or creed in others as if it were their own. Whenever I hear 'believers' arguing their points, they just seem to be repeating what their organised religion has instilled in them.
People who are ardent followers of political parties do exactly the same thing. Party leaders and executives made decisions about policy and beliefs many years ago so someone who decides they want to identify with a particular party slavishly adopts those policies as their own beliefs. Football supporters do the same when they decide on a team they want to follow and be identified with. Perhaps it's a human need.
However, I have a problem with organised religion and the concept of a single god. People who immerse themselves in organised religion seem to be exhibiting the same traits as those who follow political parties or football teams. Centuries ago decision-makers laid out a framework which they decide they like and want to identify with. They then happily adopt that established creed as their own views and beliefs. They then try to instill that framework or creed in others as if it were their own. Whenever I hear 'believers' arguing their points, they just seem to be repeating what their organised religion has instilled in them.
People who are ardent followers of political parties do exactly the same thing. Party leaders and executives made decisions about policy and beliefs many years ago so someone who decides they want to identify with a particular party slavishly adopts those policies as their own beliefs. Football supporters do the same when they decide on a team they want to follow and be identified with. Perhaps it's a human need.
I was a bog-standard Christian until my mid-twenties when I saw something about Jesus on TV that surprised and puzzled me. I then found myself reading book after book about the origins of Christianity, quite appalled at the level of my ignorance about the religion I was suppposed to be part of (as most Christians are). Once I discovered that there is no historical authenticity to the tale I stopped being a Christian - not without some effort because of the previous brainwashing.
From that experience it was easy to recognise that the same sort of propaganda had led me to believe in God, so I dropped that as well. What a wonderful intellectual release that was!
Evidence for what OldGeezer? And what is that evidence?
From that experience it was easy to recognise that the same sort of propaganda had led me to believe in God, so I dropped that as well. What a wonderful intellectual release that was!
Evidence for what OldGeezer? And what is that evidence?
Naomi – Do me a favour, Pretend that you can’t read, can’t write don’t travel out of your birth place apart from going to one business trip at the age of 21 and then travelling to your adopted place 300 miles from your birth place. Apart from that no more than 2 or 3 trips outside your usual place of residence that did not last more than one month. You do not have internet, no library in your area, you do not even have proper paper to write on, no printers of course and no USB flash drive either. Now you write me a book which must contain something to do with almost every aspect of human life from all what Indian, Greeks, Christians, Persians or whoever you may call them, know. And I will give you 23 years to do that.
However if you could not do that then use your common sense.
However if you could not do that then use your common sense.
//I was a bog-standard Christian until my mid-twenties when I saw something about Jesus on TV that surprised and puzzled me...//
Ah ha! Another victim of 'Satan's portal'! There's still hope for you my son to return to the delusion you once worshiped.
//Evidence for what OldGeezer? And what is that evidence?//
Then again . . . maybe not. ;o)
Ah ha! Another victim of 'Satan's portal'! There's still hope for you my son to return to the delusion you once worshiped.
//Evidence for what OldGeezer? And what is that evidence?//
Then again . . . maybe not. ;o)
Naomi - ////Sorry, Keyplus, I don't 'do' pretending. That's why I tell you the truth.///
So in other words you do have "some" common sense and found it a difficult task and decided to take an escape route. Although I forgot to mention few other points that means of travel are camel, ship or the fastest way of travel for you would be horse, although no visa needed for most of the countries but travelling around might not be easy due to the hostility between different tribes etc. The most important thing is that having gone through all of the trouble, when you do manage to write a book of more than 2000 pages then do not put your name on that as author which itself be a record sacrifice. I can go on and on but as you have decided not to take the challenge then tells me that you were not sure what you were talking about most of the time.
So in other words you do have "some" common sense and found it a difficult task and decided to take an escape route. Although I forgot to mention few other points that means of travel are camel, ship or the fastest way of travel for you would be horse, although no visa needed for most of the countries but travelling around might not be easy due to the hostility between different tribes etc. The most important thing is that having gone through all of the trouble, when you do manage to write a book of more than 2000 pages then do not put your name on that as author which itself be a record sacrifice. I can go on and on but as you have decided not to take the challenge then tells me that you were not sure what you were talking about most of the time.
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