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A question for Christians
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You're told Jesus died for you personally because God loves you, and this appalling death was necessary in order for your sins to be forgiven. Of course, God is omnipotent, apparently, so we cannot possibly believe there was no other way, but that aside, I would hate to think that someone deliberately planned to torture and execute a man on my behalf, so given a choice, would you have allowed it to happen?
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Something that the churches don’t teach you, As you know, the Bible is a book that at one time was widely respected. But these days, unfortunately, fewer and fewer people read it. Yet when we are discussing the Bible, we cannot do so in a satisfying way if I fail to refer to the Bible,
There was more to the issue than the mere rebellion of Adam and his wife. The rebellion of the earthly son of God raised the question: Would anyone within God’s earthly family, using his free will, choose to be loyal to God’s rulership, and would any stay loyal to God under pressure, or under the temptation of gaining something for himself by disobedience? So the integrity, of the faithfulness, of every man and woman is to be brought into existence would be a matter of doubt in the minds of all God’s creatures in heaven and on earth. (Genesis 3:1-5)
There was more to the issue than the mere rebellion of Adam and his wife. The rebellion of the earthly son of God raised the question: Would anyone within God’s earthly family, using his free will, choose to be loyal to God’s rulership, and would any stay loyal to God under pressure, or under the temptation of gaining something for himself by disobedience? So the integrity, of the faithfulness, of every man and woman is to be brought into existence would be a matter of doubt in the minds of all God’s creatures in heaven and on earth. (Genesis 3:1-5)
For Naomi and friends.
How deep the Father's love for us
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give his only Son
To make a wretch his treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss-
The Father turns his face away,
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.
Behold the man upon a cross,
My sin upon his shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life-
I know that it has finished.
I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from his reward?
I cannot give an answer,
But this I know with all my heart-
His wounds have paid my ransom.
By Stuart Townend.
How deep the Father's love for us
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give his only Son
To make a wretch his treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss-
The Father turns his face away,
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.
Behold the man upon a cross,
My sin upon his shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life-
I know that it has finished.
I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from his reward?
I cannot give an answer,
But this I know with all my heart-
His wounds have paid my ransom.
By Stuart Townend.
The expression “Son of God” primarily identifies Christ Jesus. Others referred to as “sons of God” include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he rebelled.
And the Bible is not old or new, It is Hebrew and Greek when he inspired the writing of the Bible. And with God overseeing the spread of his Word, he saw to it that regardless of how many languages it was translated into, his message would remain intact. So today, his written Word is available in a practical, usable, dependable form in hundreds of languages. It is available to all people.
And the Bible is not old or new, It is Hebrew and Greek when he inspired the writing of the Bible. And with God overseeing the spread of his Word, he saw to it that regardless of how many languages it was translated into, his message would remain intact. So today, his written Word is available in a practical, usable, dependable form in hundreds of languages. It is available to all people.
Cupid, I'm sure your poem was well meant, but the author really has nothing whatsoever to boast about. For a principled man, accepting without question that another died in the cruellest of ways - and completely unnecessarily - to save his sorry soul is nothing to be proud of.
Elderman, //Others referred to as “sons of God” include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he rebelled. //
I'm fairly au fait with the bible, but I don't recall reading that in connection with the Genesis account of the Sons of God. I'd really like to check that out. Could you please tell me where in the bible I can find it? (A pointer to a text will do).
//And the Bible is not old or new, It is Hebrew and Greek when he inspired the writing of the Bible.//
I know you're quite a long way away, but in this neck of the woods it's usually accepted that the bible contains the Old and the New Testaments - in fact that's what's printed on the front pages of the King James version which is in common usage here - so perhaps for the benefit of other ABers it would be courteous to be a little less pedantic.
Elderman, //Others referred to as “sons of God” include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he rebelled. //
I'm fairly au fait with the bible, but I don't recall reading that in connection with the Genesis account of the Sons of God. I'd really like to check that out. Could you please tell me where in the bible I can find it? (A pointer to a text will do).
//And the Bible is not old or new, It is Hebrew and Greek when he inspired the writing of the Bible.//
I know you're quite a long way away, but in this neck of the woods it's usually accepted that the bible contains the Old and the New Testaments - in fact that's what's printed on the front pages of the King James version which is in common usage here - so perhaps for the benefit of other ABers it would be courteous to be a little less pedantic.
Sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4)
The term ‘Old Testament’ inevitably creates an atmosphere of inferiority and outdatedness. But the Bible is really one work, and no part is outdated, or “old.” Its message is consistent from the first book in the Hebrew part to the last book in the Greek part. (Timothy 3:16, 17) So we have valid reasons to avoid these terms that are based on incorrect assumptions, and we prefer to use the more correct terms “Hebrew Scriptures” and “Christian Greek Scriptures.
As to being pedantic. I apologise, Iwill try to be more tactful.
The term ‘Old Testament’ inevitably creates an atmosphere of inferiority and outdatedness. But the Bible is really one work, and no part is outdated, or “old.” Its message is consistent from the first book in the Hebrew part to the last book in the Greek part. (Timothy 3:16, 17) So we have valid reasons to avoid these terms that are based on incorrect assumptions, and we prefer to use the more correct terms “Hebrew Scriptures” and “Christian Greek Scriptures.
As to being pedantic. I apologise, Iwill try to be more tactful.
Elderman, clearly I know which texts of Genesis refer to the 'Sons of God', otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them. However, I have no idea where in the bible I can find your explanation for them.
//Others referred to as “sons of God” include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he rebelled. //
You mention incorrect assumptions, and I strongly suspect that is one example. I can only imagine someone made it up.
//But the Bible is really one work, and no part is outdated, or “old.”//
You can believe anything you like if you ignore the facts and try hard enough.
//Others referred to as “sons of God” include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he rebelled. //
You mention incorrect assumptions, and I strongly suspect that is one example. I can only imagine someone made it up.
//But the Bible is really one work, and no part is outdated, or “old.”//
You can believe anything you like if you ignore the facts and try hard enough.
i believe this question was first asked in around 550 ad. i'm surprised its still doing the rounds really.
how do you expect people to explain any more than you can do yourself by reading the same documents that they have been party to as you. they are religious thus, god is brilliant, and works in mysterious ways, he can do whatever he wants when he wants, and he loves us.
what more do you expect ?
how do you expect people to explain any more than you can do yourself by reading the same documents that they have been party to as you. they are religious thus, god is brilliant, and works in mysterious ways, he can do whatever he wants when he wants, and he loves us.
what more do you expect ?
The expression “sons of the true God” occurs at Job 1:6, and here the reference is obviously to spirit sons of God assembled in God’s presence, among whom Satan, who had been “roving about in the earth,” also appeared. (Job 1:7; see also 2:1, 2.) Again at Job 38:4-7 “the sons of God” who ‘shouted in applause’ when God ‘laid the cornerstone’ of the earth clearly were angelic sons and not humans descended from Adam (as yet not even created). So, too, at Psalm 89:6 “the sons of God” are definitely heavenly creatures, not earthlings
Also supporting this are the apostle Peter’s references to “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days” (1Pe 3:19, 20), and to “the angels that sinned,” mentioned in connection with the “ancient world” of Noah’s time (2Pe 2:4, 5), as well as Jude’s statement concerning “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6).
Also supporting this are the apostle Peter’s references to “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days” (1Pe 3:19, 20), and to “the angels that sinned,” mentioned in connection with the “ancient world” of Noah’s time (2Pe 2:4, 5), as well as Jude’s statement concerning “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6).
Elderman, //the reference is obviously to spirit sons of God assembled in God’s presence//
No, it isn't obvious. I see nothing in any of your examples relating to the Old Testament (or the Hebrew if you like) to indicate that these beings were spirits. Someone's been making assumptions. There's no doubt these sons of God from Genesis behaved in a very human manner!
No, it isn't obvious. I see nothing in any of your examples relating to the Old Testament (or the Hebrew if you like) to indicate that these beings were spirits. Someone's been making assumptions. There's no doubt these sons of God from Genesis behaved in a very human manner!
Right do you see that it is Satan the Devil who makes it seem that lying is the normal thing to do. He deceived the first woman, Eve, maliciously lying to her. However, we know full well the disastrous consequences of Satan’s lying ways. Untold suffering has been unleashed on the human family because of one selfish lie and three selfish individuals—Adam, Eve, and Satan.
//Right do you see that it is Satan the Devil who makes it seem that lying is the normal thing to do.//
No, I don't see that because there's not an iota of evidence for his existence and I don't adhere to such appallingly dangerous superstition.
//Untold suffering has been unleashed on the human family because of one selfish lie and three selfish individuals—Adam, Eve, and Satan.//
Untold suffering has been unleashed on the human family because of religion -the greatest lie ever told.
No, I don't see that because there's not an iota of evidence for his existence and I don't adhere to such appallingly dangerous superstition.
//Untold suffering has been unleashed on the human family because of one selfish lie and three selfish individuals—Adam, Eve, and Satan.//
Untold suffering has been unleashed on the human family because of religion -the greatest lie ever told.
Elderman, However you define superstition, it doesn't make it right, accurate, or acceptable.
To say something else (in your case the Devil) is responsible for your misdemeanours is nothing but an abdication of your own responsibility.
Furthermore, any sensible adult would never scare the wits out of a child - or any vulnerable human being - with tales of the Bogeyman, but many have no objection to filling innocent heads with tales of magic and horror that emanate from archaic superstitions and carry no evidence whatsoever to support them. In fact in many cases the religious feel duty bound to do it - and that, in my opinion - is quite shameful!
To say something else (in your case the Devil) is responsible for your misdemeanours is nothing but an abdication of your own responsibility.
Furthermore, any sensible adult would never scare the wits out of a child - or any vulnerable human being - with tales of the Bogeyman, but many have no objection to filling innocent heads with tales of magic and horror that emanate from archaic superstitions and carry no evidence whatsoever to support them. In fact in many cases the religious feel duty bound to do it - and that, in my opinion - is quite shameful!
Victims of war are regularly mangled and maimed. How can civilized people treat one another this way? What forces drive them to such loathsome deeds, or maneouver them into the situation where they feel compelled to commit them? It is certainly not amiss to raise, in all seriousness, the questions: Can some wicked, invisible power be influencing humans to these acts of violence? Is there really a Devil?
These questions do cause a person to think. When the natural desire of all normal persons is to live at peace, why is it so common for people to hate and make a practice of killing one another?
These questions do cause a person to think. When the natural desire of all normal persons is to live at peace, why is it so common for people to hate and make a practice of killing one another?
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