Death to Apostates!

[LazyGun]

More evidence of how enlightened and tolerant the religion of Islam can be....

http://www.jihadwatch...-to-christianity.html

How can anyone with any sort of free will place any credence in a religion so weak, so insular,so paranoid, so backward that it has to kill converts to another religion ?

And what is the penalty for atheism? Death, or something a bit less drastic?

[keyplus90]

////Naomi - Tell me why that verse refers specifically to unbelievers rather than to enemies.////

At that time the only enemies were the unbelievers or disbelievers because these verse refers to the earlier battles in Islamic history. That does not necessarily mean apostate. For me any none Muslim is a disbeliever but that neither mean he/she is apostate nor enemy.

[Davethedog]

DOH! So you done really understand what an apostste is then.

[Davethedog]

That is you don't really understand what an apostate is then - sorry for the misspelling.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //At that time the only enemies were the unbelievers or disbelievers because these verse refers to the earlier battles in Islamic history.//

Because the contents of the Koran are often contradictory and ambiguous - and they are - all Muslims make of it what they will. You tell me that verse refers to earlier battles, but that can't be so because Allah clearly isn't referring to history - he's giving a direct instruction and an unmistakable promise for the future.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

The truth is some Muslims view the whole of the non-Islamic world as the enemy of Islam - whether that be a single apostate, people of a different religion, or the collective countries of the western world - and they find justification in verses like that to commit the most appalling atrocities - just as Iran is doing in this instance.

I think the point has been made.

[keyplus90]

Ok, next time I need any information on Islam, I will get in touch with you. For now, yes you have made your point.

[ll_billym]

Great, you have finished with Naomi on this thread. Now could you explain what those sentences mean please, I still do not understand let's take this example:

Bukhari (84:57) – “[In the words of] Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

I think your position is that in that sentence Allah's Apostle is not instructing anybody to kill anybody else. To help me differentiate here, could you please write out how the instruction would look if Allah's Apostle actually DID mean that somebody should be killed?

For you to be able to differentiate between these instructions yourself you must also have certain knowledge of which form an alternative instruction would take.

Thanks.

[keyplus90]

Ill-Billym - First of all that hadith is from a website that gives half of hadith. Then to answer you question, and I believe that I have already answered earlier but would do again. But I can’t give a one line answer as it need explaining so please stay with me.

First of all I hope you understand difference between Quran, Sunnah (actions of prophet)and Hadith (sayings of prophet). Then In Islam individuals are not supposed to kill anyone for any reason whatsoever. Any sentence or punishment should be served by the legal system. Now legal system knows the difference between Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. If something is clear from Quran then that is the end of it and Sunnah and Hadith will not be consulted and that is known as “Hadd” in Islamic legal system. However if something is not clear from Quran then Sunnah and Hadith is consulted. In Hadith you may find words like you mentioned but Hadith has been collected through A, heard B, C heard it from D that he “Heard” prophet saying. Whereas Sunnah is that someone “saw” prophet doing as obviously someone has to be there to see. So in Islamic legal system on this stage (after Quran) Sunnah is more stronger and as no one has ever reported that prophet killed someone or asked someone to kill when he (prophet) himself was there only because of Apostasy therefore Apostasy in Islam is not punished by death. In fact there are so many incidents where he let the people go who changed their mind. I am not saying that in few countries it has never happened or not happening, but I said that I do not know and I do not believe only one side of the story. And I personally few people in my area in my homeland who left Islam and no one killed them. I remember that was one reason once I asked Birdie to come with me to Pakistan and I would show him. And then according to Naomi 6 million people are leaving Islam each year only in Africa alone. No one has s o far killed few thousands out of those. Why? Perhaps Muslims understand what others do not, or perhaps it is more like propaganda and Islam has seen more propaganda than any other religion in last 700 years and it continuous.

[ummmm]

Confused!!!!

So, you have a religious book....but you also have two other religious books, explaining your religious book?

Have I got that right?

[beso]

Keyplus // Hadith will not be consulted and that is known as “Hadd” in Islamic legal system//

In Australia "being had" means to be deceived, "taken for a ride", "the wool pulled over your eyes". Sound like much the same in Islam.

Do your really expect a system governed by the arbitrary interpretation of the musings of a madman to be taken seriously?

[ll_billym]

Thanks for the information keyplus, but you did not answer my question:

To help me differentiate here, could you please write out how the instruction would look if Allah's Apostle actually DID mean that somebody should be killed?

I want to see what the instruction to kill would look like and compare it to the instruction not to kill.

Thanks.

[keyplus90]

ll-billym – Here is one Hadith where he asked someone to kill someone. Now before you ask this person to be killed (Kaab Bin Ashraf) was creating disinformation between Muslims in Madina and Paigan in Macca when they had agreed a truce. So he was told not to do this but he was trying to create trouble which could have ended up in many people being killed from each side had their been battle because of his mischievous. So to avoid big trouble prophet asked his companions to kill him once he did not stop doing that.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."

And from Beso post you can see about what I said earlier about propaganda. Few well known historians have written about Muhammad (pbuh) as the most influential person in the history of mankind and none of those writers were Muslims and here are people who no one knows in real life and you read their comments. Karen Armstrong wrote in her book about Muhammad (pbuh) that majority of the people in the West have not managed to come out of the fictional characters like Mahound and Mohmat created by the crusaders centuries ago to give people wrong picture about Muhammad when they were worried that Islam will shut their business in the west. And Karen Armstrong is not Muslim either.

[keyplus90]

Here is a extract from a page to tell about that incident.
So even there if you see he asked him to be killed because of this verse of the Quran (given at the bottom) that was revealed at that time. Otherwise he would not have done that.


Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf was the most resentful Jew at Islam and the Muslims, the keenest on inflicting harm on the Messenger of Allâh (Peace be upon him) and the most zealous advocate of waging war against him. He belonged to Tai’ tribe but his mother to Banu Nadeer. He was a wealthy man known for his handsomeness, and a poet living in luxury in his fort south east of Madinah at the rear of Banu Nadeer’s habitations.
On hearing the news of Badr, he got terribly exasperated and swore that he would prefer death to life if the news was true. When this was confirmed he wrote poems satirizing Muhammad (Peace be upon him), eulogizing Quraish and enticing them against the Prophet (Peace be upon him). He then rode to Makkah where he started to trigger the fire of war, and kindle rancour against the Muslims in Madinah. When Abu Sufyan asked him which religion he was more inclined to, the religion of the Makkans or that of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his companions, he replied that the pagans were better guided. Wrespect to this situation, Allâh revealed His Words:

• • “Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture? They believe in Jibt and Taghût, and say to the disbelievers that they are better guided as regards the way than the believers (Muslims).” [4:51]

[keyplus90]

Beso – Here you go. Michael Hart was Christian himself but he put Muhammad at number one in his book. And most probably more people know Michael Hart than the know someone called Beso on AB.


http://www.dlmark.net/hundred.htm

[ll_billym]

Thanks again keyplus but you have not yet answered my question, you have given me another instruction which does not help me understand this one:

Bukhari (84:57) – “[In the words of] Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

Could you please write out an example of how the instruction above ^^ would look if Allah's Apostle actually DID mean that somebody should be killed? I will then be able to understand the difference between the two.

Thanks.

[keyplus90]

You see, I can't give the words for a very simple reason. I am unable to find that exact Hadith in any book of hadith as this one is a copy and paste from another website and is not full hadith. Then very obviously this is translation as Muhammad (pbuh) did not speak English. However if I could find this hadith in Arabic then I might be able to understand a little bit more. Although Arabic is not my own language but it is a bit like my mother tongue Urdu. Because in Arabic words used make huge difference. Although that word might still be translated into one word only in English. I am not a scholar myself and my knowledge has limitations. I will try finding this hadith in Arabic and then perhaps I could tell you.

Just for example I will tell you that in English there is only one words "UNCLE" for someone that could be anyone. Whereas in Arabic there are different words for each of the person you may call uncle.
As for the main question (and I said that before) that ay hadith that contradicts with Quran then that hadith is rejected. And that is common rule.

Ok, here is the full Hadith,
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Now on the face of it, this seems a very weak hadith to me for a very simple reason. Ali was Muhammad’s (pbuh) cousin and he was adopted in a very young age (around 10) by Muhammad (pbuh) and later on got married to Muhammad’s daughter. It seems impossible that he did not know about a capital punishment declared by Muhammad (pbuh) when he spent most of his life with him, and still he burnt someone. And then someone else is telling him that he shouldn’t have burnt those people but should have killed them.