Someone has this "Is there a god business" terribly wrong

[Morgan_s]

On one hand you have the many millions or maybe billions of those that follow religions who's roots have questionable beginnings, motives and practices.

On the other hand you have millions or maybe billions that are oblivvious to the fact that we just didn't appear out of a cloud of gas and there is indeed a higher power, race or god if you will.

Where is the middle ground if there is a middle ground?

[LazyGun]

@ Morgan - What? You demand others provide proof of aliens, but just assert, without any evidence at all, that there is/was a god, and that they created humanity? This constitutes the sum total of your debate?

Massive Logic Fail.

There is no evidence of a supernatural being, just faith that there is. Given the sheer, staggeringly large scale of the universe, it is as close to a certainty as it is possible to get that there is more life out there, probably intelligent life. Whethere it is more intelligent life than our own is more debateable. The reason we dont have gossip sessions with aliens is becuase of that same staggeringly large scale of the universe, and the constraints placed upon travel by the laws of physics.

Evolution demonstrates the adaptability of life. Abiogenesis demonstrates ways by which life could stem from inorganic materials. Naturalistic explanations that are in line with the laws of science. There is no need to invoke a supernatural entity, so , in the absence of evidence other than superstition and ancient fears, why should we?

[naomi24]

Morgan_s, //Naomi, where are then? We talk to animals, insects even plants. Wouldn't these lifeforms want to talk to us? Why not?//

I've no idea where they are, but what makes you think they would consider us to be important enough to make the effort anyway? Perhaps they will speak to us at sometime in the future - and who's to say they haven't spoken to us at sometime in the past?

//because the universe is so immense many can get away with the notion that on a far flung "Corner" of the universe there are alien lifeforms just on account that we'll never no, this is not conclusive proof. //

It's not conclusive proof otherwise either.

//The fact is we're here, we were somehow put on here by something or bysomeone for unkown reasons. //

The only 'fact' in that statement is 'we're here'.

//why can't some people feel or see what's right before their eyes?//

Because your God isn't right before our eyes. He's conspicuous by his absence.

[Morgan_s]

Thanks for the education.
After a rethink i've realised that i need to sit and have a rethink about this whole situation as reading back much of what many of you said actually makes sense.
I will have some more questions in the future.

[Davethedog]

Lets see there is tons of evidence to support the we just did appear out of a cloud of gas theory. Doesn't have all the answers maybe never will.

However there is no evidence what so ever to support the Higher power thing.

[mibn2cweus]

Questions formulated around a foregone conclusion are notoriously difficult, if not impossible to answer by virtue of having presumed and pre-empted a rational explanation.

Believing is not a shortcut to understanding. Beliefs which preclude the prerequisite knowledge that validates them are simply an unjustifiable excuse to forego the quest to acquire and validate the knowledge necessary to support them.

Understanding how we know is essential to the crucial ability to distinguish between what we believe and how we establish a beliefs possible correlation to what is real by which we discover there is no middle ground between knowledge and ignorance.

The belief that a creator, of necessity infinitely more complex than that which gave rise to a being with the capacity to create, could exist prior to the environment where the capacity to imagine such a being came into existence, circumnavigates the logic which negates the possible validity of such a conclusion.

By far, the most amazing and wonderful thing about our universe is that we possess the potential, through reason, to acquire some understanding of and appreciation for it and our place within it. Understanding the process of reason, from whence it arises, and why and how it has proven to be such a valuable and productive enterprise seems to me the next logical step in our evolution.

[Elderman]

The more thorough investigation has clarified the part played by physical and psychological distortions. It has explained how ordinary objects, seen in the sky by persons who do not recognize them under the perhaps unusual circumstances, can be misconstrued in perception, magnified in the telling, further exaggerated in the newspapers, and end up as spaceships landing little green men from Mars. Further, the technical analysis of photographs that were previously considered not explainable has brought some of the most notorious UFO’s to earth. Finally, the residue of unexplained reports was shown to consist largely of unconfirmed rumors and vague accounts that were not the real problems that overwhelm mankind. But now it is clear that the “flying saucers” present neither a threat of annihilation nor a messianic hope for salvation.

[naomi24]

Elderman, //Further, the technical analysis of photographs that were previously considered not explainable has brought some of the most notorious UFO’s to earth.//

It has? How interesting. Have you got a link?

[jomifl]

Morgan, OG's post re. puddles fitting depressions must have been a little too subtle. I will make it simple, the reason conditions on Earth are just right for life is because life EVOLVED on it so ADAPTED to it as it changed. Present life wouldn't survive on the Earth of 3 billion years ago.

[Elderman]

True, there are those who do not want help. Yet, many are afraid to reveal, Are you one of them? Is there really no one whom you can trust?
or is there Lazgun he got the name and he a rabbit.

[naomi24]

Elderman, what on earth would you like us to reveal? Do you actually know what you're talking about, because I don't.

As for LazyGun's username, once again you have nothing productive to say, so you resort to attacking the messenger. Not very clever.

[jomifl]

Elderman, you really do take things too literally, Lazygun is NOT a rabbit, anymore than I am part of a clarinet. You are not a collection of balloons. Try to separate fact from fiction and stay away from sharp objects.

[naomi24]

.... and ... shhh ... don't tell anyone .....but I don't bake custard pies.

Drat! My secret is revealed! :o)

[e30316i]

I am a Catholic, I believe in God. I do not know there is a God or what form he/she/it takes, but I believe. That is enough for me. I have not been indoctrinated, manipulated in any way. I have spent some of the last 41 years considering the arguement for and against. If I am wrong, I will have lead a good life, trying to help others and doing no harm. I am no angel, have a bad temper, but thats me. If I'm right, I will have lead a good life, trying to help others and doing no harm.

What has lead me to my decision? I have watched the world go by, have travelled all over it and have been fortunate to meet so many people of different views and beliefs. I look at the diversity of life and think how?
I am also fortunate to have had a good education, both academically and through life.
The following are the facts.

1.There was a huge explosion of energy and matter was and still is thrown away from source. Our universe is still expanding.

2.We now live on a rock that orbits a gas star.

Somewhere inbetween the seeds for almost 100 billion people that have lived or are living along with everything else was created. Was this a fluke or did it get help?

I believe in the theory of evolution and i belive that earth evolved over billions of years. I do not believe that we are here because of just circumstances.

Take a rock(earth), place it near a heat source(sun) and in a vacuum(space) and come back to it in 10 billion years. You will still have a rock near a heat source. There will be no life on board, no mini humans on it. Better scientists than me have proven that.

Are we alone, thats another question. Consider this. There are more celestial bodies in our universe than there are grains of sand on earth. In your mind think of images of beaches, sand dunes, deserts etc. Really consider it.
What are the odds of us been alone. If there is a God, then the odds are good, but if there is no God then there will be other life forms.
Therefore the next question is, if there are more life forms, some must be infinitely more advanced than ourselves. In the history of the known universe, we were formed in the last milisecond. So where are they?
If we can send man to the moon, and no silly replies that man wasn't there, since modern telescopes can see the debris, then something infinitely more advanced than ourselves could find us. We create noise and leave debris in the solar system.
However there are two many anomolies, the answer is we simply don't know.
I do know this though. In order to have an explosion ie the big bang, the following is required, accelerant, fuel, matter and something to light the match. If there is no God, and this piece of matter is sitting in space, How it it go bang?
Any scientists with theories, guess what, they are still theories

[jomifl]

^Believe that if it makes you happy, leave the difficult stuff to god, give him credit when things go ok, blame satan when things go wrong, job done.

[naomi24]

e30316i, //How it it go bang? //

Simple. We attribute the unknown to the unknown and say that God, for whom there is no evidence whatsoever, must have dunnit. There you are. Sorted!

[e30316i]

i dont attribute anything to satan. a form of him is mentioned less than 0.5% in the bible, and before anyone jumps, i don't believe that the bible is a fully true reflection. however as i stated, i don't know who or what "God" is but I do know that all this is not possible without some form of help. I have had a good life but not without its share of very traumatic events. I have lost family and friends, I don't blame God, I have witnessed some of the greatest evil on this planet, I don't blame God, I blame man. However I would like someone to explain to me spontanious combustion on such a scale that the universe was created. Remember, matter sitting in a vacuum, including anti -matter is stable. It needs a push, an ignition, but if there was nothing before the bang, how did the bang happen. I note already some people telling me I'm wrong, but they don't explain how they are right.

[jomifl]

Spontaneous combustion has no more to do with the big bang than anything else. Please re-phrase your question, if that is what it was?

[e30316i]

I also note on here that some people are refering to discredited research to support their opinion. eg abiogenesis - cannot have taken place as our very important resource, oxygen, on which all life depends, prevents the formation of amino acids, the building blocks. oxygen was present very early on as with water and predates all life forms, since we all agree we evolved from the sea. it is impossible for all the facilities to be in the one place at the same micro time in the smallest form with the conditions that did not exist to kick start life. It has been tried on numerous occasions and by many scientists and discounted. there was a source and time will tell who is right.

[e30316i]

jomifl, spontaneous combustion has everything to do with the big bang. something happened to cause matter to explode. if you have an alternative theory, please let me know. as for conditions are right due to evolution, that is 100% correct. but the question is how did life begin if conditions were not right. How did mineral and rock matter become organic?