What makes atheists think their wiser than everyone else?

[sith123]

prompted by an earlier question.

[goodlife]

Well, true wisdom is readily available to all, but not all find it. Some reject it or avoid it, even when it is at their doorstep. “Those loving me I myself love,” says wisdom, “and those looking for me are the ones that find me.” (Proverbs 8:17) Wisdom is accessible only to those who seek it in earnest.

[Johnysid]

The question should be:

"What makes some atheists think that they are wiser than all people who are not atheists."

The question is very close to being "ad hominem" - attacking the man/woman rather than the idea.

[jake-the-peg]

The simple fact is that Rationalism on which atheism is based adapts its views when new information becomes available.

Religion does not it sticks to the same old beliefs regardless of evidence

Sticking their fingers in their ears and closing their yes hoping if they don't hear or see anything to the contrary it won't contradict their ancient magic books.


So which approach is the wiser? the one that adapts to new information or the one that refuses to?

[beso]

sith //To be honest you have changed my mind jom, atheists aren't wiser than religious people, but their a whole lot more arrogant. //

What a joke. Nothing surpasses the arrogance of those who insist that perfect immutable knowledge was available to ancient ignorant men.

We can forgive those men for the inevitable ignorance of their time. However a modern person who has available the benefit of centuries of observation and research by many thousands of highly educated people yet still insist that an old book is the source of all knowledge? Now that must surely be the definition of pure arrogance.

[andy-hughes]

They don't.

You cannot make a blanet generalisation about any belief system held by more than none person - it is invalid.

We can all speak only for ourselves, based on our beliefs - or lack of them - and our experiences.

I am an atheist, I would never dream of assuming that I am 'wiser' than anyone else on matters of faith. I simply do not believe there is a god, only mankind's desire to believe in one as a way of hoping for a better afterlife, which makes this life easier to bear with its constant tribulations.

So anyone who says they are 'wise' is putting forward a position which should be challeneged instantly with a request for some evidence - but such a viewpoint is based on the individual's perception of themselves, and not a reflection of their own beliefs, even though they may try and argue that they are supported by a 'higher power'.

[jomifl]

Would a wise person..
Believe what someone tells him without corroborative evidence
Believe a story so incredible that no living person has experienced anything like it and which flies in the face of his experience.
Spend a good part of his life participating in rituals that have no apparent purpose or benefit.
Believe in the existence of a supernatural being for whose existence there is no evidence.
Follow a set of rules that have no explicable purpose.
Consign half of the population to an existence of subservience and wasted potential.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Thankyou for the link you posted, JohnnySid; it introduced me to Blind Willie Johnson, whom I ought to have heard of, but haven't. Some delightful stuff!
And thanks to you, Goodlife, for explaing to me where I've been going wrong all these years: I just haven't been earnest enough. Must do better.

[mibn2cweus]

What distinguishes us from other species and defines us as human is our capacity to reason. Perhaps more than any other attribute, what distinguishes and defines us as individuals is what we believe, as ones beliefs play a crucial and defining role in determining our choices. Reason provides us with both the means for determining what choices are available to us as well as which we should choose based on the beliefs we hold as truths, whether those believes are acquired from those handed down from one generation to the next or adopted through a process of rational deliberation. Since our beliefs are fundamental and key to the process of reason itself, it is the basis for and veracity of our beliefs which must first come into question in establishing the means by which reason enables us to think rationally.

Belief in the arbitrary, without establishing the correlation between what we believe and the reality to which beliefs pertain is more disruptive to the rational process than is ignorance in that belief apart from that which validates it is a presumption of knowledge of that which we remain ignorant.

Wisdom is knowledge gained though experience with successfully applying what we have learned which implies possession of the requisite knowledge to begin with, which implies a fundamental understanding of the process of reason which enables us to determine what we know and to establish the correspondence between our knowledge, beliefs and reality. Arbitrary beliefs lead to arbitrary choices culminating in arbitrary consequences, the worst of which would never have been possible if not for arbitrary beliefs and the presumption of knowledge and understanding.

Atheists do not presume the existence of god, which a process of reason alone can demonstrate does not exist should you first be willing to abandon the practice of belief in the arbitrary which will enable you to come to an understanding of what cannot exist by virtue of a knowledge of that which does. Knowledge of what knowledge is, (and isn't) is the crucial first step to establishing what is real and differentiating between that and what can never be which sets one on the path to achieving true wisdom.

[keyplus90]

After reading few of these posts I came to the conclusion that my first post was spot on.

[jomifl]

After reading keyplus's last 2 posts I believe (yes actually believe) that I now understand the difference between believers and atheists. Quite simply an atheist having come to the conclusion that no such thing as god exists (by using the power of reasoning) is quite happy to explain how he/she came to that conclusion. A believer on the other hand not having access to rational thought does not know why he/she is a believer so is unable to explain his/her position. That is why they never explain why they are believers, they are afraid of embarrassing themselves, but would rather be seen as fools.

[jomifl]

Johnysid, I would like to echo V-E's sentiment re. Blind Willy, I've already converted that one to an MP3 file, more to follow. If you haven't got the link to convert youtube soundtracks to MP3 I will post it up on the music section.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Would definitely like to know about MP3 conversion, Jom, if you'd be so kind.

[jomifl]

V-E here you go
http://www.youtube-mp3.org/
just google it then save it on your screen as a short cut.
To use it copy the URL of the youtube track and paste it into the box on the converter then click on 'convert' next click on 'download', at the bottom of your screen will appear the 'save' options enabling you to rename it and choose it's destination file. Good luck!

[jomifl]

I should apologise for misusing Sith's thread but since he has anounced his abandonment of it I guess he won't be too miffed.

[naomi24]

jom, //After reading keyplus's last 2 posts I believe (yes actually believe) that I now understand the difference between believers and atheists. Quite simply an atheist having come to the conclusion that no such thing as god exists (by using the power of reasoning) is quite happy to explain how he/she came to that conclusion. A believer on the other hand not having access to rational thought does not know why he/she is a believer so is unable to explain his/her position.//

Did someone say 'spot on'? ;o)

[sith123]

//You can't speak from an atheist's viewpoint. You're not an atheist.//

what, and you never speak from a religious viewpoint?

[naomi24]

Sith, Why would I? However, since I was once a Christian, I could. You, on the other hand, have clearly never been a non-believer. If you had, you wouldn't say such silly things.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Thanks, Jom.

[sith123]

how do you know, as you know, i wasnt born a muslim.

[sith123]

i converted, so therefore i was not muslim all my life.