Offended Muslims – will you listen to your rational brothers?

[naomi24]

Some salient points here.

http://www.standard.c...th-islam-8135054.html

[jomifl]

Noami, I doubt that they can read or have seen the video. They just do what the Mullahs tell them to do.

[naomi24]

I was hoping we'd get some positive feedback to a positive link.

[Duncer]

I'm with jomilf, the idiots who burn and murder in the name of backwardness are very unlikely to read this, and even less likely to be allowed to read this. Sadly.

[NOX]

Whereas our own home grown idiots who burn and murder in the name of backwardness are generally pretty well read in Belfast....

Some very worthy points in that link, I hope some people do read it.

[naomi24]

I posted it for the two Muslim ABers who I know are offended. I'm not suggesting for a moment they're among the protestors - but they are offended and I thought a point of view from a Muslim who doesn't think as they do might be helpful.

[Duncer]

They are quite likely to be better educated, but that guarantees nothing.

[emmie]

this is important, first point he makes is correct. Because violence of this sort is alienating their friends as much as their enemies.

to resort to violence is to lose the argument.
to me second very valid point - sadly many do not see this at all, they have closed their eyes and ears.

Without those liberties, we Muslims would not be practising religious freedom in the West, building mosques, creating cemeteries, prospering as faith communities. In other words, we cannot burn the very bridges and so on.

[emmie]

i should have put his points in quotation marks, sorry, but perhaps you can see what i was trying to say.

[naomi24]

Em, yes I can.

[emmie]

thank you, i understand their frustration to some extent, but it's like the old adage, use a hammer to crack a nut, what are you let with. The so called comedy film, and i saw a little, decided it was crap, is not the reason they are so angry, they just are, at the west, at their leaders, at the lives they lead. Those in Britain who don't want to be part of our democratic society should have a good think about what this man is saying. That the reason they can stand on a London street and burn a flag and chant death to the infidels is because this is a democratic, or mostly society. One that won't beat, shoot them for their behaviour. We have shown to a large extent tolerance to acts of overt aggression, death threats to it's citizens, Salman Rushdie is just one.

[keyplus90]

I have said almost same kind of things on the thread that was removed. But one thing I must say (I am sure would not make any difference) that Western world has to move on too from the centuries old crusade mentality and would stop double standards when it comes to freedom of speech. There are many things here that you can't speak against one way or another because there are laws against it. For example you can't even disagree when it come to holocaust (let alone saying something against it) but it is freedom of speech to say anything when it comes to Islam.

[sandyRoe]

Is it a crime in the UK to deny the holocaust? It's not some theological point, like how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. It was a real, murderous, historical event.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, firstly I would say that those who are rampaging and killing people for a perceived slight upon someone who lived centuries ago are not exercising freedom of speech; secondly, yes, your views on the holocaust are well known to some of us - perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain them again for those who don't know what you think - and finally I would ask in which areas do you feel that your freedom of speech is being restricted in this country?

Any comment on my link? Your reference to the 'crusade mentality' would suggest that either you haven't understood it, or that you don't agree with it.

[LazyGun]

@Keyplus.

Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK. The UK, in fact, was one of the countries that voted against an EU wide law criminalising holocaust denial on the grounds of free speech.

http://en.wikipedia.o...inst_Holocaust_denial

The reason that countries have adopted such a law is that such sentiments are often mentioned hand in hand with hate crime.

"As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war "

This has become an issue of extremists and calculating figures within the religious and political hierarchy attempting to impose their worldview on everyone else by murder, terrorism, violence, mob rule and intimidation. The number of times this happens is legion, going back to the fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie, through to the murder of the US ambassador over a amateur hate film designed deliberately to incite such over-reaction. None hear support this film, that I am aware of; All would recognise it for what it is. But regardless of how offensive your religion might find it, ideas and religions have to rise above such goading. A mature, responsible religion would preach tolerance, understanding and calm - and its true that some immams and muslim commentators fully understand this - read the article that naomi linked to for evidence of this.

But you have to recognise that whilst masses erupt, and burn flags, and place death threats, and storm embassies, and murder diplomats in the name of their religion, that religion and its adherents will be viewed, with suspicion, fear, and loathing - and will create a vicious and growing cycle of xenophobia, inflammatory comment and violent counter-reaction. Extremist groups all thrive in a climate of fear, and your religion seems unable to see this.

[jomifl]

Keyplus, I agree with you re. the holocaust. I don't think it is illegal to deny in the UK that the holocaust occured . I feel that the zionists have hijacked the holocaust 'brand' for their own political purposes. My ancestors were persecuted for religious reasons and took refuge in britain centuries ago. I haven't noticed any 'museums of huguenot persecution' and we don't have a 'national huguenot persecution day'
Why don't you post up your views on the holocaust, it is a subject that warrants more discussion.

[sandyRoe]

hoist yourself with your own petard?

[beso]

"As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war "

The supporters of the Bible grossly trivialise the Hebrew genocide perpetrated against the more than thirty tribes who lived in "The Promised Land" before Joshua and his minions invaded.

Can we have all supporters of the Bible charged?

[naomi24]

I think we have to be sensible about this. Unlike the other examples given, the Holocaust occurred within living memory when presumably human beings were as civilised as we think we are now - and actually, looking at the state of the world, that's worrying.

[HowardKennitby]

//
Is it a crime in the UK to deny the holocaust? It's not some theological point, like how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. It was a real, murderous, historical event.
//

I agree totally. Discussion of the holocaust is about as far away as you can get from arguing about the worth, size and power of your imaginary friend.

[jomifl]

Sandy, I am familiar with the expression 'hoist with his/your own petard', 'hoist' meaning blown up and a 'petard' being a bomb on a pole that was placed against castle doors in order to gain entry by forcible means.
Please explain how your above post has any relevance to this thread.