Law1 min ago
Atheists
75 Answers
Ths is not an attack on atheists. I accept their are good atheists out there, as there are good muslims, jews etc. However what really bugs me s that atheism comes from a belief that there is no god. Atheists find the concept of god unbelievable.
if this is the case, why constantly debate with people who believe then, if you dismiss everything they say?
if this is the case, why constantly debate with people who believe then, if you dismiss everything they say?
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@beso
//How exactly does one "interrupt" another poster? //
Maybe lightbulb wrote that after just having watched one of the Sunday morning debate shows, where people all talk/shout simultaneously, to stop the viewers being able to hear the other participant's side of the discussion.
I really wish they'd tweak the show format such that participants are locked inside a soundproof booth and only have their microphone switched on when it's their turn to talk.
//How exactly does one "interrupt" another poster? //
Maybe lightbulb wrote that after just having watched one of the Sunday morning debate shows, where people all talk/shout simultaneously, to stop the viewers being able to hear the other participant's side of the discussion.
I really wish they'd tweak the show format such that participants are locked inside a soundproof booth and only have their microphone switched on when it's their turn to talk.
@ lightbulb.
Like with the followers of religion, those who self-identify as atheists come in different flavours. The majority, as far as I understand it, do not actually have a belief that htere is no god = rather, their atheism stems from a lack of belief in a god, because, despite the thousands of years of god worship, of all flavours, there is no compelling or credible evidence to support such a notion; And as the borders of our knowledge of our surroundings is expanded, the reasons for having a god in the first place become superfluous.
So I disagree with this statement of yours;
"atheism comes from a belief that there is no god"
But agree with this statement
"Atheists find the concept of a god unbelievable" and would extend it to include "because despite thousands of years of worship, there is no compelling evidence to support the idea of a god".
As to why we debate = Some of us are naturally argumentative. Some will have personal or family issues, caused, in their minds, by this faith.Most debate the issue because along with the personal worship comes a raft of cultural baggage that intrudes into our daily lives, often to the detriment of the culture. Interpretations of religious screed and the pronouncements of holy men are used to justify a whole range of negative acts, to pass new or to enshrine old law that is unjust or supports inequality. The deleterious effects on humanity perpetrated by the zealous are only to obvious right now.
So- atheists have a legitimate interest in challenging the foundations of religious belief and the the legitimacy of the cultural restrictions they often endorse.
And the debate is not just for the people involved either; there is potentially a wider audience who are interested in the argument, but do not necessarily wish to contribute. And certainly I rarely initiate a debate on what I see as the shortcomings of religions faith, unless it is to comment on a story that illustrates these issues; Parents in America currently on trial for the murder of their son, who died of a perfectly treatable disease; This despite having lost a son just 2 years ago for the same reason, and being told by the court that they had to seek medical attention for their other children. All because of the parents faith.
I will however respond to posts, like goodlifes, for instance, that is just thinly disguised propaganda and evangelising; Especially since it is not even original work of theirs, but cut and pasted wholesale from the Watchtower archives.
And if those of a religious persuasion wish to receive only responses from the religious, they can request it in their OP, and I would usually respect that request - but remember this is an open forum, and we all have to live in the same world. We have to put up with the cultural consequences of religious belief, whether we believe in the same god, or none.
Belief and Intelligence. I do not assume a lack of intelligence amongst those with a religious belief. I simply think that, on this specific issue, the faithful are irrational in their belief. That does not mean, either, that I think them irrational about everything, unless their religious faith is so central to their life that it guides what they do.
That having been said - there are a number of studies which show an inverse link between religiosity and intelligence and religiosity and educational level, and religiosity and level of scientific knowledge; The trend is that, the higher your educational achievement, the greater your scientific knowledge, particularly biological science, or the greater your native IQ, the less likely you are to have a belief in a god....
Like with the followers of religion, those who self-identify as atheists come in different flavours. The majority, as far as I understand it, do not actually have a belief that htere is no god = rather, their atheism stems from a lack of belief in a god, because, despite the thousands of years of god worship, of all flavours, there is no compelling or credible evidence to support such a notion; And as the borders of our knowledge of our surroundings is expanded, the reasons for having a god in the first place become superfluous.
So I disagree with this statement of yours;
"atheism comes from a belief that there is no god"
But agree with this statement
"Atheists find the concept of a god unbelievable" and would extend it to include "because despite thousands of years of worship, there is no compelling evidence to support the idea of a god".
As to why we debate = Some of us are naturally argumentative. Some will have personal or family issues, caused, in their minds, by this faith.Most debate the issue because along with the personal worship comes a raft of cultural baggage that intrudes into our daily lives, often to the detriment of the culture. Interpretations of religious screed and the pronouncements of holy men are used to justify a whole range of negative acts, to pass new or to enshrine old law that is unjust or supports inequality. The deleterious effects on humanity perpetrated by the zealous are only to obvious right now.
So- atheists have a legitimate interest in challenging the foundations of religious belief and the the legitimacy of the cultural restrictions they often endorse.
And the debate is not just for the people involved either; there is potentially a wider audience who are interested in the argument, but do not necessarily wish to contribute. And certainly I rarely initiate a debate on what I see as the shortcomings of religions faith, unless it is to comment on a story that illustrates these issues; Parents in America currently on trial for the murder of their son, who died of a perfectly treatable disease; This despite having lost a son just 2 years ago for the same reason, and being told by the court that they had to seek medical attention for their other children. All because of the parents faith.
I will however respond to posts, like goodlifes, for instance, that is just thinly disguised propaganda and evangelising; Especially since it is not even original work of theirs, but cut and pasted wholesale from the Watchtower archives.
And if those of a religious persuasion wish to receive only responses from the religious, they can request it in their OP, and I would usually respect that request - but remember this is an open forum, and we all have to live in the same world. We have to put up with the cultural consequences of religious belief, whether we believe in the same god, or none.
Belief and Intelligence. I do not assume a lack of intelligence amongst those with a religious belief. I simply think that, on this specific issue, the faithful are irrational in their belief. That does not mean, either, that I think them irrational about everything, unless their religious faith is so central to their life that it guides what they do.
That having been said - there are a number of studies which show an inverse link between religiosity and intelligence and religiosity and educational level, and religiosity and level of scientific knowledge; The trend is that, the higher your educational achievement, the greater your scientific knowledge, particularly biological science, or the greater your native IQ, the less likely you are to have a belief in a god....
It may come as a surprise to some that the countries with the highest proportion of of religious believers have the lowest educational achievements, lowest average IQ(perhaps debateable), shortest life expectancy and lowest average income. Those countries with lowest proportion of religious believers have the highest average IQ, highest average incomes, highest standard of education and longest life expectancy.
Which of these factors if any are the causative ones is open to speculation but lack of birth control as espoused by some religions does not help and neither does statutory ignorance as imposed by others. Those countries that allow their population freedom of thought and put personal development and democracy before religious dogma seem to be the most beneficial to their inhabitants.
Which of these factors if any are the causative ones is open to speculation but lack of birth control as espoused by some religions does not help and neither does statutory ignorance as imposed by others. Those countries that allow their population freedom of thought and put personal development and democracy before religious dogma seem to be the most beneficial to their inhabitants.
Some atheists are the exact flip side of the coin on which the other side is extreme religiousness.
People that constantly waste their own and other times whilst spending whole lifetimes discrediting religion or the belief of a god cannot be healthy and one often has to wonder what really is the agenda here? What is the real motive and driving force? Maybe deep under everything they really are believers trying to dispel, attack and discredit so they can escape the same belief system they ran away from but realise they can never run away from what's deeply engrained in their minds and souls so attack it at every opportunity to hate and distance themselves away from it....
People that constantly waste their own and other times whilst spending whole lifetimes discrediting religion or the belief of a god cannot be healthy and one often has to wonder what really is the agenda here? What is the real motive and driving force? Maybe deep under everything they really are believers trying to dispel, attack and discredit so they can escape the same belief system they ran away from but realise they can never run away from what's deeply engrained in their minds and souls so attack it at every opportunity to hate and distance themselves away from it....
beso, if you take the recent gay marriage fiasco you find similar propositions in the AB News sections, and its likely most of them have never seen the inside of a church let alone believe in a god.
Granted, none of them are policy makers (thankfully), but then neither I would guess are AB religionists.
Granted, none of them are policy makers (thankfully), but then neither I would guess are AB religionists.
indeed they do beso and that is very wrong. I think though that that tends to be more the members of organised religions who believe that not only what they believe is right for them but that its right for everybody and even that it should be enforced. That's why I try to remind people of the difference between someone who believes in god and someone who believes in an organised religion.
Terry Pratchett wrote a book about this called Small Gods. Its both wise and funny....worth a look.
Terry Pratchett wrote a book about this called Small Gods. Its both wise and funny....worth a look.
I have a bit of a problem with believers outside of organised relion too.
I think it promotes an irrational view of the world which has adverse consequences.
For example we have had a string of religious Prime Ministers who have let their religious views influence public policy
Yes they were members of organised religions but fundamentally they acted on the basis of irrational faith
I think it promotes an irrational view of the world which has adverse consequences.
For example we have had a string of religious Prime Ministers who have let their religious views influence public policy
Yes they were members of organised religions but fundamentally they acted on the basis of irrational faith
I'm an atheist who doesn't really argue the toss much. If you believe in a deity then that's up to you, if you are particularly religious then that is also up to you. I have friends of a few different religions and we all manage to rub along nicely by just respecting each other as individuals and cracking on with the things we do have in common. I can understand how a belief or a faith may enhance life for some or give them some comfort. My mother is very religious.
The only time I will ever really get on my high horse is if someone tries to force their religious beliefs on me or on children (if I had them, I don't so it's kind of a moot point).
I am against faith schools, religion as significant in politics and the many cruelties inflicted on people in the name of religion and that I will speak out about and debate. In my opinion, religion should hold no place in a modern society other than as a personal and chosen belief.
But I'm still up for christmas holidays as my birthdays around then and I like the holiday. :c)
The only time I will ever really get on my high horse is if someone tries to force their religious beliefs on me or on children (if I had them, I don't so it's kind of a moot point).
I am against faith schools, religion as significant in politics and the many cruelties inflicted on people in the name of religion and that I will speak out about and debate. In my opinion, religion should hold no place in a modern society other than as a personal and chosen belief.
But I'm still up for christmas holidays as my birthdays around then and I like the holiday. :c)
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