Was God An Accessory To Murder?

[modeller]

Taking Genesis at its face value, did God deliberately provoke Cain to such intense anger that he killed Abel.

[mibn2cweus]

The moral of the story is, "Praise His noodly appendage" . . . lest ye be thereby smitten.

[vetuste_ennemi]

It's an interesting story, Idiosyncrasy:
"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering".
You'll remember these verses from Genesis 8, too:
"20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour..."
What do you think verse 21 means? What is it about animal sacrifice which seemingly pleases your God so much?

[Octavius]

v-e, I guess its a bit like turning up for a barbecue and thinking, mmm, that dead cow/pig/sheep/goat that you are cooking on your culinary patio altar smells nice.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Right, got it, Octavius. It's not the same explanation as St. Paul gives in Hebrews, though.

[goodlife]

Well you can see,what sort of love Jesus say would clearly identify his true followers. (John 13:34, 35)

[atalanta]

Try the story of the Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart to stop him letting the Israelites leave Egypt. As a result the Egyptian army was wiped out by the return of the water of the Red Sea. I call that mass murder.
Also, Deuteronomy, 2, 29 - 31
" But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day."

[naomi24]

Goodlife, //John 13:34, 35//

But you don't.

[chrisgel]

//God hardened Pharaoh's heart//

So much for free will.

[naomi24]

//God hardened Pharaoh's heart//

One could be forgiven for thinking God was enjoying this.

[goodlife]

You see some people are selective listeners. When God speaks some things they listen, but when he speaks others they do not.

For instance, at Isaiah 6:9, 10, where Jehovah appears to Isaiah and says, Go, and tell this people, He says: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Now, did God mean for Isaiah to actually go and fatten their hearts and stop up their ears and close their eyes to forestall any repentance. No, but he was predicting that that would be the effect of the message that Isaiah had been commanded to go tell the people, that the people themselves would show closed eyes and unhearing ears and fatty hearts, that they would not repent and turn to Jehovah for healing spiritually.

Then too you have that controversial where it says Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh.

He said: I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you.” (Ex. 7:3, 4) Now, Jehovah did not harden the heart of Pharaoh, but he was predicting that Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened as a result of the message sent to him by Moses and Aaron, and that the repeated extension of God’s mercy to him would not soften him but would cause his heart to harden even more.

So It is not unusual for wicked men to interpret Jehovah’s as a sign of weakness and thus become more set in their evil ways, thinking the time of reckoning will never come. This is shown by Ecclesiastes 8:11: “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. So it simple for you lot.

[atalanta]

If Goodlife is going to claim that the words of the Bible do not mean what they say - ( quite simple words such as " I will harden the heart does not mean I will harden the heart" ) we really should be told his credentials for re-interpreting the original Hebrew.
And yes, I have learned Hebrew and I have read several books of the Bible in the original.
Has Goodlife done so ? Has he got Hebrew GCSE or A-level ? If not, how does he substantiate such a claim that he knows the meaning better than the translators ?

[goodlife]

Well, all I see he have harden your heart too.

[vetuste_ennemi]

That's told you, Atalanta, you poor lot.

[chrisgel]

Atlanta - It was revealed to him.

[goodlife]

Before answering that question, you need to keep several factors in mind. First, just having a knowledge of ancient Hebrew or Greek does not in itself miraculously make someone more inclined to understand the message of the Bible.

[vulcan42]

Yes, you don't need knowledge to understand the bible, just arrogance.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Arrogance, Vulcan? I hope that remark wasn't directed at Goodlife. Goodlife is a humble seeker after truth.

[goodlife]

And that,what sort of love Jesus say would clearly identify his true followers. (John 13:34, 35)

[naomi24]

Goodlife, unless the word of the bible is wrong, God wasn’t making predictions. As for the verse you’ve now quoted twice, again I say you do not do as instructed. You said on another thread that the world is ‘infested’ with atheists, or words to that effect. Not much love for your fellow man there, is there? You will most certainly not be identified as a 'true follower'. If Jesus ever returned, he wouldn't recognise you - or your religion.

[modeller]

Goodlife I have done what you told me :
//That is to go to the Bible account that may have given rise to the question. Examine it thoroughly, not neglecting to read the context, the surrounding material// and I can find nothing that you describe.

//Cain was rejected, not because he offered the wrong kind of sacrifice,
No, it was because his own works were wicked—marked by jealousy, hatred, and finally murder—that Cain was rejected by God.—1 John 3:12. //

To start with at the time of God's rejection Cain had NOT committed murder ! That only happened AFTER God had shown him no favour or regard . This made him very angry and his face fell.
Which of his works were wicked ? There is not a single word there about hatred or jealousy.

That is your assumption to explain God's rejection.
You are wrong about Cain being a murderer . He wasn't one until AFTER he was provoked by God. So even if your unbased assumption about Cain's hatred and jealousy was true. Why did God then criticise Cain further thus provoking him into violence. There is not a word in the text to explain why God didn't then attempt to stop what happened when the brothers met.