Was God An Accessory To Murder?

[modeller]

Taking Genesis at its face value, did God deliberately provoke Cain to such intense anger that he killed Abel.

[Octavius]

"if you believe God created everything then it follows that he created Satan too. Therefore, if Satan is responsible for all the evils of the world, then by extension God must ultimately take full responsibility."

Not really, you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting the bible, or misunderstanding it. It says that god created the angel lucifer who became the fallen angel when he sinned/rebelled against god (presumably using free will). Now if we ignore that and say it was god what did it all, then it would seem you are absolving all mankind of all the sin and criminality and agreeing with the fundamentalists that it is god's work, not theirs.

Aside from that, if we all agree that this supposedly non-existent god is guilty of all crime, sin and evil in the world, then I'm sure he can handle it and you surely must take up your argument with him directly.

[naomi24]

Actually, it is the people who bang on about free will who are misrepresenting the wonky doctrine of the bible. When free will comes at a terrible price, it doesn’t truly exist. God is omniscient, therefore he knew before he created everything, including Satan, what would happen. Nevertheless, he went ahead. Excusing God his obvious failings is irrational. It simply doesn’t work.

Incidentally, I would be pleased to take my argument up with him directly – but where is he? Nowhere to be found!

[Octavius]

So you are arguing that a god who you don't believe in is guilty of all crime and evil ?

[jomifl]

It seems that most believers fall into the 'cain' category, only doing good things because they fear punishment. Just as well they think that god exists otherwise the world would be just a bit worse.

[Octavius]

"it seems that most believers fall into the 'cain' category, only doing good things because they fear punishment."

How do you come to that conclusion ?

[naomi24]

Octavius, I’m sure you’re well aware that I’m arguing that, from the point of view of the religious, their God should be held responsible. There's no free will involved in 'Do as I say - or suffer the consequences'.

[Octavius]

"I’m arguing that, from the point of view of the religious, their God should be held responsible"

But thats not what they are saying here is it.

[naomi24]

Octavius, they’re talking about ‘sin’ and ‘free will’ – and so am I.

[Octavius]

But you neither believe in free will or sin, so what is your point.

[vetuste_ennemi]

“V-E@ … So I put the question to you. What is sin? If you can tell me what sin is, then I will endeavour to answer you.”
I wasn’t trying to be obscure, Idiosyncrasy. I’ll rephrase the question: will people disobey God in the New World, or not?

[naomi24]

Octavius, I believe in free will. What is your point?

[Octavius]

So free will without a god means that all the ills of the world are man made borne out of greed, power and anger.

[naomi24]

Octavius, barring natural disasters, without the concept of a supernatural God man can’t off-load responsibility for his own actions on to anything - not even the Devil.

[modeller]

Octavious //Gods don't kill people. So free will without a god means that all the ills of the world are man made borne out of greed, power and anger.//

Speaking as an Atheist as I have said before. I agree with those statements, but why did you avoid saying how greed, power and anger accounts for lust, perversion , beastiality, paedophilia,etc. much of which is carried out by those closest to your god , your fellow theists the clerics.

Quite simply I don't believe in the Bible's version of creation and historical events. therefore I don't hold a god responslble for anything that it describes . HOWEVER the Theists Do believe it is TRUE ; that millions of people were killed or injured and suffered directly or by proxy by their God.

Further to that , much of your //ills of the world // are a direct result of the bible's teaching today. So we are not talking about the past , it is here and now. Supported and excused your fellow theists.

[Octavius]

"I don't hold a god responslble for anything that it describes"

Good. And therefore you have answered your own OP question.

[naomi24]

Octavius, that's his opinion - others might think differently so there's no reason to halt the discussion..... but perhaps you disagree.

[idiosyncrasy]

V-E & Naomi@
What is sin?

If you look into Vines Expository of Bible words, you will see that the Hebrew word translated sin is chat·taʼtha′; in and in Greek, ha·mar·ti′a. In both languages this means to "miss" or "not reaching the goal"
Sin did not enter into the world until Adam & Eve disobeyed God.
Having been created perfect, they were now no longer perfect. They missed the mark of perfection by becoming imperfect. Therefore, they were no longer in harmony with God and the rest of his creation. They could no longer reflect his attributes perfectly, i.e love, wisdom, power and justice.

[naomi24]

idiosyncrasy, that's if you believe it. I don't.

[modeller]

Octavious Now stop wriggling and answer the OP ! .

If your blindness will allow it , just read the question // Taking Genesis at its face value...............etc// Well did it ? In YOUR OPINION ! It's not mine that' important . I am willing to be convinced by you theists beliefs that I am wrong.
So far not one of you theists have answered the OP question
// Taking Genesis at its face value..................// All the theist answers have wriggled around the OP by trying to introduce other factors , not in the OP ( eg state of his mind ). Face Value ! They are the key words.

You can try to muddy the water by introducing anger ,greed ,power in society. All irrelevant to the OP.

None of that answers the simple OP . Was YOUR god as depicted in YOUR BIBLE guilty of provoking murder ?

[Octavius]

"I am willing to be convinced by you theists beliefs that I am wrong."

I'm not blind or wriggling, nor trying to convince you of anything. I agree with you... I don't hold a god responslble for anything that it [the bible] describes.